[forum] XFree86's Future and thoughts and suggestions
G O Economou
forum@XFree86.Org
Thu, 3 Apr 2003 13:08:28 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
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We've had a few TODO lists. The first was in the private repository but
and I never saw anyone maintain it there at all except from some attempts=
by
myself. I had little response and then eventually they would leave, sayi=
ng=20
It was too much work' to maintain. =0D
=0D
Then there used to be a semi-TODO on the website for new developers to
ponder. This was my personal issue and I took on Webmaster to address th=
is.
I truly believed that if there someone listening and responding, it wou=
ld
happen. I imagined droves of new people. I imagined new areas being tak=
en
on. Well I'll stop it here and say I was gung-ho.=0D
=0D
Some took it up and have contributed heavily since then (thank you Guido =
and
John :-). Others? They started and then got bored or 'were moving on'. =
I
know this because I asked every single person who applied for membership,
thought about membership, or for a time even sent in patches and the
results were very discouraging. I contacted everyone who left XFree86 an=
d
asked why. What could we do to keep you? Most answered and said: Nada.=
=0D
=0D
My ToDo was was pretty broad too so that it would capture any inkling of
interest out there and it outlined where we were looking for people and w=
hat
we needed. And Jimmy, most importantly of all, I kept mine current! I w=
as
on that because I, me, believed in it. I had support internally from onl=
y
one person, but I didn't care, because I believed! I was convinced with =
the
power of the Website I could make this happen.=0D
=0D
Well this story has a sad ending. My responses were poor and few wanted =
to
do anything that required any semblance of 'work'. They were free spirit=
s
and wanted to contribute as they see fit, when they see fit and all with=
out
getting contaminated by other developers who may infringe on their
creativity.=0D
=0D
This has led me to believe only self-motivation and questions on the list=
s
themselves will work. All else=0D
has failed. And as I've demonstrated, I tried mightily. =0D
=0D
Georgina =0D
=0D
=0D
-------Original Message-------=0D
=0D
From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D
Date: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 09:25:20 PM=0D
To: forum@XFree86.Org=0D
Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86's Future and thoughts and suggestions=0D
=0D
On Wednesday, 02 Apr 2003, Egbert Eich wrote:=0D
=0D
> James Boyden writes:=0D
> =0D
> > and especially,=0D
> > * if coverage of a particular area is thin, or if the
maintainers/experts=0D
> > for that area are the maintainers/experts "by default", this is a cle=
ar=0D
> > place where a new developer can feel they can make a difference.=0D
> =0D
> Yes. I hope this is what will happen.=0D
> =0D
> > =0D
> > This last point is possibly the most important in attracting new
developers,=0D
> > because it seems that new developers are often discouraged from
contributing=0D
> > to the project because the project is so massive, and there doesn't s=
eem
to=0D
> > be anywhere the new developer can contribute and "make a difference".=
=0D
> > =0D
> =0D
> OK, if this is the case we need to work on it.=0D
> What do you think is the problem right now?=0D
> The unpersonal way of handling fix submissions?=0D
> The long time it takes for a fix to be processed?=0D
=0D
I think enough people have complained about these former two points.=0D
Besides, I've never submitted a fix myself, so I can't really complain. ;=
)=0D
=0D
But no, my point wasn't just about fixes, it was about new developers who=
=0D
wish to add new functionality or enhance existing functionality.=0D
=0D
Basically, you have a new, enthusiastic developer who would like to make=0D
a contribution to the project, but then they look at the project and it's=
=0D
so massive and everything seems to be either already complete or very=0D
specialised and under the care of an experienced maintainer or expert.=0D
So the new developer feels there is nowhere they can make a difference,=0D
becomes discouraged, and loses enthusiasm.=0D
=0D
As you say, the Bugzilla will remedy this to a certain extent, as now at=0D
least a new developer can scan through the list of bugs, find something=0D
which whey'd like to take a shot at, and feel that they're making a=0D
positive contribution.=0D
=0D
But there also needs to be a way for the new developer to do more than=0D
just bug-fix: they need to be able to add new functionality, or work on=0D
code which is already present -- and not everyone can come up with ideas=0D
like "I'm going to rewrite the way XFree86 does fonts" or "I'm going to=0D
add the ability to rotate the display" (or at least, they can't come up=0D
with an idea they can actually implement).=0D
=0D
A list of "holes" or "thin spots" in XFree86 maintainership or expertise=0D
could give a new developer something they could target -- if no-one else=0D
is currently working on that (other than an overtaxed developer who is=0D
working on it or maintaining it because no-one else is) then the new=0D
developer can immediately begin to make a positive contribution.=0D
=0D
Likewise, a list of TO-DOs and projects (both currently active and needin=
g=0D
commencement) would be helpful in this regard. [If this already exists on=
=0D
the website or in the source tree, I apologise, but a quick search throug=
h=0D
both turned up nothing.]=0D
=0D
If you take a look at the GCC website <http://gcc.gnu.org>, they have=0D
a list of projects:=0D
=0D
http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/=0D
=0D
and, importantly, a list of projects suitable for "beginner GCC hackers":=
=0D
=0D
http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/beginner.html=0D
=0D
which is aimed at "people who aren't intimately familiar with GCC's=0D
internals". Take a look at this page for more information.=0D
=0D
Of course, both of these pages are apparently way out of date, but the=0D
idea is there...=0D
=0D
> Would a named list of maintainers make a difference?=0D
=0D
To a certain extent, yes (for the reasons listed in the first three point=
s=0D
of my original mail, which have been elided). But I think this list would=
=0D
be _more_ useful if it were additionally annotated with information like=0D
"this expert or maintainer only works on this area because there is no-on=
e=0D
else doing so -- this is not really their area of interest or expertise"=0D
and "this expert or maintainer is happy to provide information on this=0D
area to new developers, but is no longer engaged in active development",=0D
as both of these then give the new developer points of "weakness" to=0D
target with their efforts.=0D
=0D
=0D
Jimmy.=0D
_______________________________________________=0D
Forum mailing list=0D
Forum@XFree86.Org=0D
http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum=0D
=2E=20
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<DIV>We've had a few TODO lists. The first was in the pr=
ivate repository but and I never saw anyone maintain it there at all exce=
pt from some attempts by myself. I had little response and then eve=
ntually they would leave, saying 'It was too much work' to maintain. =
; </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Then there used to be a semi-TODO on the website for new developers =
to ponder. This was my personal issue and I took on Webmaster to ad=
dress this. I truly believed that if there someone listening and re=
sponding, it would happen. I imagined droves of new people.&n=
bsp; I imagined new areas being taken on. Well I'll stop it here an=
d say I was gung-ho.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Some took it up and have contributed heavily since then (thank you G=
uido and John :-). Others? They started and then got bored or=
'were moving on'. I know this because I asked every single person =
who applied for membership, thought about membership, or for a time even =
sent in patches and the results were very discouraging. I con=
tacted everyone who left XFree86 and asked why. What could we do to=
keep you? Most answered and said: Nada.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My ToDo was was pretty broad too so that it would capture =
any inkling of interest out there and it outlined where we were looking f=
or people and what we needed. And Jimmy, most importantly of a=
ll, I kept mine current! I was on that because I, me, believed in i=
t. I had support internally from only one person, but I didn't care=
, because I believed! I was convinced with the power of the Website=
I could make this happen.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Well this story has a sad ending. My responses were poor and f=
ew wanted to do anything that required any semblance of 'work'. The=
y were free spirits and wanted to contribute as they see fit, when =
they see fit and all without getting contaminated by other developers who=
may infringe on their creativity.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This has led me to believe only self-motivation and questions on the=
lists themselves will work. All else</DIV>
<DIV>has failed. And as I've demonstrated, I tried mightily. =
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Georgina </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=3DIncrediOriginalMessage><I>-------Original Message-------</I></D=
IV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=3Dreceivestrings>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>From:</B></I> <A href=3D"m=
ailto:forum@XFree86.Org">forum@XFree86.Org</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Date:</B></I> Wednesday, A=
pril 02, 2003 09:25:20 PM</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>To:</B></I> <A href=3D"mai=
lto:forum@XFree86.Org">forum@XFree86.Org</A></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt" <i><B>Subject:</B></I> Re: [foru=
m] XFree86's Future and thoughts and suggestions</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>On Wednesday, 02 Apr 2003, Egbert Eich wrote:<BR><BR>>=
; James Boyden writes:<BR>> <BR>> > and especially,<BR>> >=
* if coverage of a particular area is thin, or if the maintainers/expert=
s<BR>> > for that area are the maintainers/experts "by default", th=
is is a clear<BR>> > place where a new developer can feel they can =
make a difference.<BR>> <BR>> Yes. I hope this is what will happen.=
<BR>> <BR>> > <BR>> > This last point is possibly the most=
important in attracting new developers,<BR>> > because it seems th=
at new developers are often discouraged from contributing<BR>> > to=
the project because the project is so massive, and there doesn't seem to=
<BR>> > be anywhere the new developer can contribute and "make a di=
fference".<BR>> > <BR>> <BR>> OK, if this is the case we need=
to work on it.<BR>> What do you think is the problem right now?<BR>&g=
t; The unpersonal way of handling fix submissions?<BR>> The long time =
it takes for a fix to be processed?<BR><BR>I think enough people have com=
plained about these former two points.<BR>Besides, I've never submitted a=
fix myself, so I can't really complain. ;)<BR><BR>But no, my point wasn'=
t just about fixes, it was about new developers who<BR>wish to add new fu=
nctionality or enhance existing functionality.<BR><BR>Basically, you have=
a new, enthusiastic developer who would like to make<BR>a contribution t=
o the project, but then they look at the project and it's<BR>so massive a=
nd everything seems to be either already complete or very<BR>specialised =
and under the care of an experienced maintainer or expert.<BR>So the new =
developer feels there is nowhere they can make a difference,<BR>becomes d=
iscouraged, and loses enthusiasm.<BR><BR>As you say, the Bugzilla will re=
medy this to a certain extent, as now at<BR>least a new developer can sca=
n through the list of bugs, find something<BR>which whey'd like to take a=
shot at, and feel that they're making a<BR>positive contribution.<BR><BR=
>But there also needs to be a way for the new developer to do more than<B=
R>just bug-fix: they need to be able to add new functionality, or work on=
<BR>code which is already present -- and not everyone can come up with id=
eas<BR>like "I'm going to rewrite the way XFree86 does fonts" or "I'm goi=
ng to<BR>add the ability to rotate the display" (or at least, they can't =
come up<BR>with an idea they can actually implement).<BR><BR>A list of "h=
oles" or "thin spots" in XFree86 maintainership or expertise<BR>could giv=
e a new developer something they could target -- if no-one else<BR>is cur=
rently working on that (other than an overtaxed developer who is<BR>worki=
ng on it or maintaining it because no-one else is) then the new<BR>develo=
per can immediately begin to make a positive contribution.<BR><BR>Likewis=
e, a list of TO-DOs and projects (both currently active and needing<BR>co=
mmencement) would be helpful in this regard. [If this already exists on<B=
R>the website or in the source tree, I apologise, but a quick search thro=
ugh<BR>both turned up nothing.]<BR><BR>If you take a look at the GCC webs=
ite <<A href=3D"http://gcc.gnu.org">http://gcc.gnu.org</A>>, they h=
ave<BR>a list of projects:<BR><BR><A href=3D"http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/=
">http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/</A><BR><BR>and, importantly, a list of pro=
jects suitable for "beginner GCC hackers":<BR><BR><A href=3D"http://gcc.g=
nu.org/projects/beginner.html">http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/beginner.html<=
/A><BR><BR>which is aimed at "people who aren't intimately familiar with =
GCC's<BR>internals". Take a look at this page for more information.<BR><B=
R>Of course, both of these pages are apparently way out of date, but the<=
BR>idea is there...<BR><BR>> Would a named list of maintainers make a =
difference?<BR><BR>To a certain extent, yes (for the reasons listed in th=
e first three points<BR>of my original mail, which have been elided). But=
I think this list would<BR>be _more_ useful if it were additionally anno=
tated with information like<BR>"this expert or maintainer only works on t=
his area because there is no-one<BR>else doing so -- this is not really t=
heir area of interest or expertise"<BR>and "this expert or maintainer is =
happy to provide information on this<BR>area to new developers, but is no=
longer engaged in active development",<BR>as both of these then give the=
new developer points of "weakness" to<BR>target with their efforts.<BR><=
BR><BR>Jimmy.<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Forum=
mailing list<BR><A href=3D"mailto:Forum@XFree86.Org">Forum@XFree86.Org</=
A><BR><A href=3D"http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum">http://XFree8=
6.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum</A><BR>. </TD></TR>
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