From postmaster Wed Mar 19 09:41:49 2003 Received: from hemlock.xfree86.org (du14155.wb.ptd.net [204.186.14.155]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2JHfmVr065894 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:41:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dawes@hemlock.xfree86.org) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by hemlock.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h2JHflA0046326 for forum@xfree86.org; Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:41:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dawes) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:41:47 -0500 From: David Dawes To: forum@xfree86.org Message-ID: <20030319124147.A46314@xfree86.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.6 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [Forum] test Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Test From postmaster Wed Mar 19 21:10:32 2003 Received: from public.xfree86.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2K5AVVr086065; Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:10:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dawes@public.xfree86.org) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h2K5AVTn086008; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:10:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dawes) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:10:31 -0500 From: XFree86 BOD To: forum@xfree86.org Message-ID: <20030320001031.B7189@xfree86.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.6 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is an invitation for anyone and everyone with an interest in X, XFree86, and related technologies and their future to participate in a public and open discussion. Any topics are open to discussion, from those related to administrative and management issues through to technical issues. A new mailing list has been created to provide an open forum for this discussion. To subscribe, go to . The list is unmoderated, and you don't need to subscribe to the list in order to post to it. An archive of the list is available at . This announcement has been blind-copied to all of the XFree86 public lists, but please send followups to the new forum@xfree86.org list. It has been brought to the attention of the XFree86 Core Team that one of its members, Keith Packard, has been actively (but privately) seeking out support for a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is also in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and the future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclose these concerns within the context of the XFree86 Core Team, which makes his membership of that team unviable. As a consequence, Keith Packard is no longer a member of the XFree86 Core Team. The leaders of the XFree86 project feel that discussing the future of XFree86 and related technologies within a closed group of vested interests is contrary to the spirit of openness and community involvement that many of those vested interests claim to espouse. Instead, the involvement of everyone in a truly open discussion is welcomed by The XFree86 Project, and we invite everyone to express their thoughts, opinions and concerns freely in this open forum. We look forward to hearing and responding to them. The XFree86 Project BOD David Dawes Robin Cutshaw Marc Evans Rich Murphey Jon Tombs David Wexelblat From postmaster Wed Mar 19 21:57:37 2003 Received: from inpbox.inp.nsk.su (inpbox.inp.nsk.su [193.124.167.24]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2K5vYVr067699 for ; Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from D.Yu.Bolkhovityanov@inp.nsk.su) Received: from Sky.inp.nsk.su (Sky.inp.nsk.su [193.124.167.84]) by inpbox.inp.nsk.su (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h2K5vMFD012337 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:57:22 +0600 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Sky.inp.nsk.su (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA1051459 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:57:26 +0600 (NSK) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:57:25 +0600 From: "Dmitry Yu. Bolkhovityanov" To: forum@XFree86.Org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.2 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Mailing lists archives Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi! Some time ago all *@xfree86.org maillists archives were available at www.xfree86.org/pipermail/ . Several months ago those had disappeared, which made much harm: while various sites on the Internet have these archives, the XFree86 site was THE archive, which could be linked to or searched through with Google. I personally always skimmed through Xpert list via archive, since the list volume was too big to receive it by e-mail. The cvs-commit list archive also was of great value. Now I simply don't read any lists besides Fonts, which had definitely decreased my acquaintance with XFree86 and my ability to do anything for the XFree86 project. I'm sure many people share my feelings. Now when there IS /pipermail/forum/, maybe it will be possible to restore other /pipermail/ archives? With best regards, Dmitry _________________________________________ Dmitry Yu. Bolkhovityanov The Budker Institute of Nuclear Physics Novosibirsk, Russia From postmaster Thu Mar 20 01:57:06 2003 Received: from hugin.diku.dk (qmailr@hugin.diku.dk [130.225.96.144]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2K9v5Vr068206 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 01:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from firefly@diku.dk) Received: (qmail 18256 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2003 09:57:03 -0000 Received: from tyr.diku.dk (firefly@130.225.96.226) by hugin.diku.dk with QMQP; 20 Mar 2003 09:57:03 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:57:02 +0100 (MET) From: "Peter \"Firefly\" Lund" To: forum@xfree86.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] I wish Keith Packard luck Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I wish Keith Packard luck. I think he will be able to do a better job. I hope some of the vested interests include Linux distribution vendors like Red Hat, Connectiva, SuSE, etc. They have a good reason to see changes in the way XFree86 is run: http://www.advogato.org/person/mharris/diary.html?start=5 -Peter From postmaster Thu Mar 20 01:57:29 2003 Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (fairlite.demon.co.uk [158.152.52.252]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2K9vRVr068222 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 01:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alanh@fairlite.demon.co.uk) Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2K9vQI0001327 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:57:26 GMT Received: (from alanh@localhost) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h2K9vPCZ001325 for forum@xfree86.org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:57:25 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:57:25 +0000 From: Alan Hourihane To: forum@xfree86.org Message-ID: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.6 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Well, As this forum is for discussing all X stuff, here goes with a few notes from an XFree86 Core Team meeting from a little while back. So in the spirit of openness I thought I should discuss it here. This is stuff that we can think of that needs doing for XFree86 5.0, but by no means is it limited to this list or even guarantee'ing anything on the list will make it for 5.0. So, to spark discussions, here it is.... 1. Redesign of XAA, so that multiple depth pixmaps can be stored in offscreen memory and the creation of a new directive - called the XAASurface. There will undoubtably be driver work involved to port to the new interface. The techinical lead on this is Mark Vojkovich. I believe Mark has a substantial portion of this done, if not all. 2. FBManager extensions. This still needs furthur thought to encompass the requirements of all bases, but, the DRI is one that needs much more flexible memory management of the framebuffer. Secondly, it's been requested before for linear allocation, rather than the current area allocation code for some Xv implementations. 3. Xlib locale removal. By removing all the Xlc code from libX11 and see if we can layer it on top of iconv. Need to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of such a task. 4. DGA - do we leave in, or do we shelve it ? 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. This still needs to be done. 6. PseudoColor emulation. Egbert Eich has written some preliminary code for this, and we're hoping he'll be able to release it soon. 7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is obviously tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do you correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with independent graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. 9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension replacing Xlib drawing routines. 10. Window translucency. 11. XFixes extension. 12. Gamma corrected RENDER 13. Potential DIX/DDX changes. Any other topics, please bring up for discussion. Alan. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 03:37:36 2003 Received: from hicks.adgrafix.com (hicks.adgrafix.com [64.55.193.2]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KBbZVr046060 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 03:37:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keith_whitwell@yahoo.com) Received: from yahoo.com ([213.78.159.49]) by hicks.adgrafix.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h2KBbYP09475; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:37:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3E79A7FE.4070100@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:37:34 +0000 From: Keith Whitwell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020830 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org, dri-devel References: <20030320001031.B7189@xfree86.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.2 required=6.0 tests=DISCLAIMER,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD, QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: XFree86 BOD wrote: > It has been brought to the attention of the XFree86 Core Team that one > of its members, Keith Packard, has been actively (but privately) seeking > out support for a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is > also in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested > interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and the > future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclose these concerns > within the context of the XFree86 Core Team, which makes his membership > of that team unviable. As a consequence, Keith Packard is no longer a > member of the XFree86 Core Team. What specifically does the XFree86 bod see as being wrong with the idea of a 'by-invitation-only group' managing X server development? Isn't that exactly what the core team & xfree86 BOD have been doing all along? Maybe the core team & bod could explain what is being hinted as a new spirit of openness and how that is proposed to effect the XFree86 development process and strategy? Will it mean forinstance an end to the sort of behind-closed-doors discussions that appear to have lead to this announcement? Please forgive my somewhat cynical tone... The best strategy to fight a fork would be to open up XFree & thereby make forking unnecessary. It seems like that is whats being attempted, but can the leopard change its spots? Sometimes I wonder if it knows it has them. OK - some concrete proposals, with cynicism turned off: - Make BOD minutes public - Open all core team meetings to the public, and if feasible post minutes, transcripts or even audio feeds. - Extend CVS access to regular contributors. Use scripts or whatever to control access to subtrees if you want. - Consider dropping the BOD and core team ideas in favour of an elected committee. Examine recent trends in managing other large projects. Just generally get down off your high horses and accept that the developers out there won't wreck xfree86 if you let them participate & accept them as equals... Of course, if xfree starts accepting more developers, it will make it harder for us in the dri tree as we tend to benefit from xfree's exclusionary practices -- developers find it easier to get cvs access for DRI than XFree86, so we pick up some talented developers that get fed up of waiting for patches to be applied to xfree cvs. But then again, what is the dri tree but a friendly fork to workaround for xfree's closed development methodology? If xfree really opened itself up, the first thing they'd do is extend an invitation to merge with the dri project, right? Maybe that's the acid test, or maybe it's whether we'd accept... Keith Disclaimer: Not speaking for anyone except myself, I had no prior knowledge of these events, and my employer is definitely *not* one of the 'vested interests' mentioned above. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 03:42:06 2003 Received: from mwinf0602.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KBg5Vr095390 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 03:42:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0602.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87C9A5400A8A for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:41:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18vyQd-0000Nb-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:41:47 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:41:46 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 09:57:25AM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > Well, > > As this forum is for discussing all X stuff, here goes with a few notes > from an XFree86 Core Team meeting from a little while back. So in the > spirit of openness I thought I should discuss it here. > > This is stuff that we can think of that needs doing for XFree86 5.0, but > by no means is it limited to this list or even guarantee'ing anything > on the list will make it for 5.0. > > So, to spark discussions, here it is.... > > 1. Redesign of XAA, so that multiple depth pixmaps can be stored in offscreen > memory and the creation of a new directive - called the XAASurface. There > will undoubtably be driver work involved to port to the new interface. The > techinical lead on this is Mark Vojkovich. I believe Mark has a substantial > portion of this done, if not all. Mmm, what would be the benefit of this one ? And how is the hardware side taken care of ? For example with graphic cards that don't have linear framebuffer, and where the pixmaps need to be converted (either in software or in hardware) before they are uploaded to the offscreen cache. Such non-linear memory organisation is sensitive to depth changes. > 2. FBManager extensions. This still needs furthur thought to encompass > the requirements of all bases, but, the DRI is one that needs much more > flexible memory management of the framebuffer. Secondly, it's been > requested before for linear allocation, rather than the current area > allocation code for some Xv implementations. Will this be X centric, or will we be able to share this framework with the fbdev or other graphic hardware accessing stuff ? If i understood it right, the DRI wanted to move most of this in the drm kernel module, no ? > 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. This > still needs to be done. I personally am interested in dual/multi-head, and flexible configuration of viewports into a common framebuffer. I am not familiar with RandR, but i think it could be extended to allow dynamical head configuration or windows-zooming or other such functionality. > 7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is obviously > tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do you > correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. The display part at least is related to what i mention above. > 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with independent > graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. What about running multiple seats on the different heads of a same video chip ? You exclude that here, but with a common low level hw access and management layer (like the dma buffers of the DRI) i think it can be done. It may cause security concerns and such though. Anyway, for dual/multi-head on single graphic cards that support it, i would like to have us separate more the part related to the graphic chip from the part related to the output heads. Current multi-headed solutions (on the same chip) use a chip sharing trick, and the pEnt to store common information, but we could make this more formal, at least at the device driver level, and have things like preinit and part of the screeninit be done one time only for the entity, and then have multiple calls to modeinit for setting the viewports, the zooming, the outgoing resolution, the ddc info on the attached monitor and so on done per head. Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 04:21:15 2003 Received: from hicks.adgrafix.com (hicks.adgrafix.com [64.55.193.2]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KCLDVr012677 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:21:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keith@tungstengraphics.com) Received: from tungstengraphics.com ([213.78.159.49]) by hicks.adgrafix.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h2KCLCP19616; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:21:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3E79B239.8030207@tungstengraphics.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:21:13 +0000 From: Keith Whitwell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020830 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org CC: dri-devel Subject: Re: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X References: <20030320001031.B7189@xfree86.org> <3E79A7FE.4070100@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=6.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Keith Whitwell wrote: > XFree86 BOD wrote: > >> It has been brought to the attention of the XFree86 Core Team that one >> of its members, Keith Packard, has been actively (but privately) seeking >> out support for a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is >> also in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested >> interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and the >> future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclose these concerns >> within the context of the XFree86 Core Team, which makes his membership >> of that team unviable. As a consequence, Keith Packard is no longer a >> member of the XFree86 Core Team. > > > What specifically does the XFree86 bod see as being wrong with the idea > of a 'by-invitation-only group' managing X server development? Isn't > that exactly what the core team & xfree86 BOD have been doing all along? > > Maybe the core team & bod could explain what is being hinted as a new > spirit of openness and how that is proposed to effect the XFree86 > development process and strategy? Will it mean forinstance an end to > the sort of behind-closed-doors discussions that appear to have lead to > this announcement? It's always a shock to see that what is meant to tease when written comes out looking more like a direct attack when read back... Anyway, let me be explicit: I'm teasing, but there is a serious point buried in there. Keith From postmaster Thu Mar 20 04:36:35 2003 Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (fairlite.demon.co.uk [158.152.52.252]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KCaWVr018870 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:36:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alanh@fairlite.demon.co.uk) Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2KCaSI0001813 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:36:29 GMT Received: (from alanh@localhost) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h2KCaSI1001811 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:36:28 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:36:28 +0000 From: Alan Hourihane To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:41:46 +0100, Sven Luther wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 09:57:25AM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > > Well, > > > > As this forum is for discussing all X stuff, here goes with a few notes > > from an XFree86 Core Team meeting from a little while back. So in the > > spirit of openness I thought I should discuss it here. > > > > This is stuff that we can think of that needs doing for XFree86 5.0, but > > by no means is it limited to this list or even guarantee'ing anything > > on the list will make it for 5.0. > > > > So, to spark discussions, here it is.... > > > > 1. Redesign of XAA, so that multiple depth pixmaps can be stored in offscreen > > memory and the creation of a new directive - called the XAASurface. There > > will undoubtably be driver work involved to port to the new interface. The > > techinical lead on this is Mark Vojkovich. I believe Mark has a substantial > > portion of this done, if not all. > > Mmm, what would be the benefit of this one ? And how is the hardware > side taken care of ? For example with graphic cards that don't have > linear framebuffer, and where the pixmaps need to be converted (either > in software or in hardware) before they are uploaded to the offscreen > cache. Such non-linear memory organisation is sensitive to depth > changes. I'll leave Mark to answer this one. > > 2. FBManager extensions. This still needs furthur thought to encompass > > the requirements of all bases, but, the DRI is one that needs much more > > flexible memory management of the framebuffer. Secondly, it's been > > requested before for linear allocation, rather than the current area > > allocation code for some Xv implementations. > > Will this be X centric, or will we be able to share this framework with > the fbdev or other graphic hardware accessing stuff ? If i understood it > right, the DRI wanted to move most of this in the drm kernel module, no ? We're in the X development forums, so I can see it being X centric. As for the DRI team wanting to move framebuffer allocation into the kernel - they have a document about it which probably should be repeated here. > > 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. This > > still needs to be done. > > I personally am interested in dual/multi-head, and flexible > configuration of viewports into a common framebuffer. I am not familiar > with RandR, but i think it could be extended to allow dynamical head > configuration or windows-zooming or other such functionality. I think multihead in a common framebuffer is doable in the current infrastructure. > > 7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is obviously > > tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do you > > correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. > > The display part at least is related to what i mention above. > > > 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with independent > > graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. > > What about running multiple seats on the different heads of a same video > chip ? You exclude that here, but with a common low level hw access and > management layer (like the dma buffers of the DRI) i think it can be > done. It may cause security concerns and such though. I'm not excluding anything. This is just to open up discussions. The above seems to relate to a question you had furthur back in the message regarding multihead in a common framebuffer. As I've said, multihead in a common framebuffer should be doable in the current infrastructure, but multiseat in that environment suffers the same problems as with multiple graphics cards. The current issue, is the OS. As for Linux, we know the 2.5 kernel will be able to support concurrent VT's, so we'll need to take advantage of that. As for other OS'es, we'll need to figure out details. If there are others out there with knowledge on the other OS'es I'd welcome their thoughts here. > Anyway, for dual/multi-head on single graphic cards that support it, i > would like to have us separate more the part related to the graphic chip > from the part related to the output heads. Current multi-headed > solutions (on the same chip) use a chip sharing trick, and the pEnt to > store common information, but we could make this more formal, at least > at the device driver level, and have things like preinit and part of the > screeninit be done one time only for the entity, and then have multiple > calls to modeinit for setting the viewports, the zooming, the > outgoing resolution, the ddc info on the attached monitor and so on done > per head. multihead on a common framebuffer is obviously chip specific, so a lot of the details are specific to a driver. Again, for this, it should be doable now. Alan. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 04:48:12 2003 Received: from hicks.adgrafix.com (hicks.adgrafix.com [64.55.193.2]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KCmCVr019179 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:48:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keith@tungstengraphics.com) Received: from tungstengraphics.com ([213.78.159.49]) by hicks.adgrafix.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h2KCmBP24642 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:48:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3E79B88C.7090807@tungstengraphics.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:48:12 +0000 From: Keith Whitwell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020830 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=6.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > >>Anyway, for dual/multi-head on single graphic cards that support it, i >>would like to have us separate more the part related to the graphic chip >>from the part related to the output heads. Current multi-headed >>solutions (on the same chip) use a chip sharing trick, and the pEnt to >>store common information, but we could make this more formal, at least >>at the device driver level, and have things like preinit and part of the >>screeninit be done one time only for the entity, and then have multiple >>calls to modeinit for setting the viewports, the zooming, the >>outgoing resolution, the ddc info on the attached monitor and so on done >>per head. > > > multihead on a common framebuffer is obviously chip specific, so a lot > of the details are specific to a driver. Again, for this, it should be > doable now. Alan - do you mean that there is some shared infrastructure there now for this, or that individual drivers can each extend what exists to get this going? There was once talk about a multithreaded X server - is this envisaged for XF5? What is the future of the work & extensions keithp was particularly involved with? Keith From postmaster Thu Mar 20 04:54:20 2003 Received: from mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KCsJVr019380 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 04:54:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C847AE8021EF for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:53:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18vzYO-0000fk-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:53:52 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:53:51 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320125351.GA2534@iliana> References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:36:28PM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > > > 2. FBManager extensions. This still needs furthur thought to encompass > > > the requirements of all bases, but, the DRI is one that needs much more > > > flexible memory management of the framebuffer. Secondly, it's been > > > requested before for linear allocation, rather than the current area > > > allocation code for some Xv implementations. > > > > Will this be X centric, or will we be able to share this framework with > > the fbdev or other graphic hardware accessing stuff ? If i understood it > > right, the DRI wanted to move most of this in the drm kernel module, no ? > > We're in the X development forums, so I can see it being X centric. Well, the discution yes, but the solution may be more generic, no ? > As for the DRI team wanting to move framebuffer allocation into the kernel - > they have a document about it which probably should be repeated here. Yes, ... > > > 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. This > > > still needs to be done. > > > > I personally am interested in dual/multi-head, and flexible > > configuration of viewports into a common framebuffer. I am not familiar > > with RandR, but i think it could be extended to allow dynamical head > > configuration or windows-zooming or other such functionality. > > I think multihead in a common framebuffer is doable in the current > infrastructure. You are saying that it should be possible to use RandR to switch the viewport of both heads dynamically, like we change resolutions today ? > > > 7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is obviously > > > tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do you > > > correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. > > > > The display part at least is related to what i mention above. > > > > > 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with independent > > > graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. > > > > What about running multiple seats on the different heads of a same video > > chip ? You exclude that here, but with a common low level hw access and > > management layer (like the dma buffers of the DRI) i think it can be > > done. It may cause security concerns and such though. > > I'm not excluding anything. This is just to open up discussions. The above > seems to relate to a question you had furthur back in the message regarding > multihead in a common framebuffer. As I've said, multihead in a common > framebuffer should be doable in the current infrastructure, but multiseat > in that environment suffers the same problems as with multiple graphics > cards. The current issue, is the OS. As for Linux, we know the 2.5 kernel > will be able to support concurrent VT's, so we'll need to take advantage > of that. As for other OS'es, we'll need to figure out details. If there > are others out there with knowledge on the other OS'es I'd welcome their > thoughts here. Ok, ... BTW, when the X server dies for whatever reason, it would take both seats with him, right ? > > Anyway, for dual/multi-head on single graphic cards that support it, i > > would like to have us separate more the part related to the graphic chip > > from the part related to the output heads. Current multi-headed > > solutions (on the same chip) use a chip sharing trick, and the pEnt to > > store common information, but we could make this more formal, at least > > at the device driver level, and have things like preinit and part of the > > screeninit be done one time only for the entity, and then have multiple > > calls to modeinit for setting the viewports, the zooming, the > > outgoing resolution, the ddc info on the attached monitor and so on done > > per head. > > multihead on a common framebuffer is obviously chip specific, so a lot > of the details are specific to a driver. Again, for this, it should be > doable now. Yes, but not easily. The way i would do it currently is to set a virtual size that is the sum of both heads and inform the driver that the framebuffer is shared somehow. This would need the user to setup things. Another way of doing this is, in the driver, to wait that the information about both heads mode are given to the driver, and then sum them up and do a the framebuffer allocation then. This could be done in preinit, i think, but again, you would need to get access to the other head's framebuffer layout information and modify it, which is not the cleanest thing to do. If we are going to rework things, we could as well clean this up, no ? Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 05:07:00 2003 Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (fairlite.demon.co.uk [158.152.52.252]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KD6wVr019810 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 05:06:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alanh@fairlite.demon.co.uk) Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2KD6vI0001846 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:06:58 GMT Received: (from alanh@localhost) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h2KD6vfr001844 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:06:57 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:06:57 +0000 From: Alan Hourihane To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320130657.GF867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <3E79B88C.7090807@tungstengraphics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E79B88C.7090807@tungstengraphics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.1 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:48:12 +0000, Keith Whitwell wrote: > > > >>Anyway, for dual/multi-head on single graphic cards that support it, i > >>would like to have us separate more the part related to the graphic chip > >>from the part related to the output heads. Current multi-headed > >>solutions (on the same chip) use a chip sharing trick, and the pEnt to > >>store common information, but we could make this more formal, at least > >>at the device driver level, and have things like preinit and part of the > >>screeninit be done one time only for the entity, and then have multiple > >>calls to modeinit for setting the viewports, the zooming, the > >>outgoing resolution, the ddc info on the attached monitor and so on done > >>per head. > > > > > >multihead on a common framebuffer is obviously chip specific, so a lot > >of the details are specific to a driver. Again, for this, it should be > >doable now. > > Alan - do you mean that there is some shared infrastructure there now for > this, or that individual drivers can each extend what exists to get this > going? Both. The mga driver is a good example of using a second crt. But also XAA has specific changes to share a graphics accelerator. There is also some helper code in xfree86/common that can detect when your using a shared entity. Additionally the overlay code xf8_16bpp actually sets up an 8bpp and a 16bpp framebuffer, and if the chip supports it, it does the overlay so you can use both simultaneously. I believe the chips driver does support this mode of operation. > There was once talk about a multithreaded X server - is this envisaged for > XF5? There's not been talk of a multithreaded Xserver for 5.0, or for quite some time. Although there was some work quite some time ago to investigate this.... That was called MTXserver and the code is still available from the XFree86 CVS, but MTXserver is extremely old. It's under xc/workInProgress/MTXserver if you want to take a closer look. > What is the future of the work & extensions keithp was particularly > involved with? Your guess is as good as mine. Alan. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 05:19:25 2003 Received: from ejc.ecomda.com (ejc.ecomda.com [212.18.24.150]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KDJOVr058618 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 05:19:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from torgeir@pobox.com) Received: (qmail 2832 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2003 13:20:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.248]) (torgeir@[212.36.39.235]) (envelope-sender ) by 0 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Mar 2003 13:20:36 -0000 From: Torgeir Veimo To: forum@XFree86.Org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1048166362.3846.28.camel@atlantis.marketpipe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-3) Date: 20 Mar 2003 13:19:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=6.0 tests=SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Keith Packard issue Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: FYI: the Keith Packard issue is now on Slashdot.org. -- Torgeir Veimo From postmaster Thu Mar 20 05:12:43 2003 Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (fairlite.demon.co.uk [158.152.52.252]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KDCgVr038958 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 05:12:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alanh@fairlite.demon.co.uk) Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2KDCfI0001854 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:12:41 GMT Received: (from alanh@localhost) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h2KDCfHX001852 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:12:41 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:12:41 +0000 From: Alan Hourihane To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320131241.GG867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320125351.GA2534@iliana> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030320125351.GA2534@iliana> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:53:51 +0100, Sven Luther wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:36:28PM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > > > > 2. FBManager extensions. This still needs furthur thought to encompass > > > > the requirements of all bases, but, the DRI is one that needs much more > > > > flexible memory management of the framebuffer. Secondly, it's been > > > > requested before for linear allocation, rather than the current area > > > > allocation code for some Xv implementations. > > > > > > Will this be X centric, or will we be able to share this framework with > > > the fbdev or other graphic hardware accessing stuff ? If i understood it > > > right, the DRI wanted to move most of this in the drm kernel module, no ? > > > > We're in the X development forums, so I can see it being X centric. > > Well, the discution yes, but the solution may be more generic, no ? Potentially. > > As for the DRI team wanting to move framebuffer allocation into the kernel - > > they have a document about it which probably should be repeated here. > > Yes, ... > > > > > 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. This > > > > still needs to be done. > > > > > > I personally am interested in dual/multi-head, and flexible > > > configuration of viewports into a common framebuffer. I am not familiar > > > with RandR, but i think it could be extended to allow dynamical head > > > configuration or windows-zooming or other such functionality. > > > > I think multihead in a common framebuffer is doable in the current > > infrastructure. > > You are saying that it should be possible to use RandR to switch the > viewport of both heads dynamically, like we change resolutions today ? I'm not thinking RandR here. More a static approach by splitting the framebuffer up into two portions, one for use as though it's an independent card. Then XAA can share the graphics accelerator to write to both regions. I understand this is the way of the mga driver that does it now. There'd be a need for better framebuffer management to support depth switching for RandR in this environment, which comes back to point 2. > > > > 7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is obviously > > > > tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do you > > > > correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. > > > > > > The display part at least is related to what i mention above. > > > > > > > 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with independent > > > > graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. > > > > > > What about running multiple seats on the different heads of a same video > > > chip ? You exclude that here, but with a common low level hw access and > > > management layer (like the dma buffers of the DRI) i think it can be > > > done. It may cause security concerns and such though. > > > > I'm not excluding anything. This is just to open up discussions. The above > > seems to relate to a question you had furthur back in the message regarding > > multihead in a common framebuffer. As I've said, multihead in a common > > framebuffer should be doable in the current infrastructure, but multiseat > > in that environment suffers the same problems as with multiple graphics > > cards. The current issue, is the OS. As for Linux, we know the 2.5 kernel > > will be able to support concurrent VT's, so we'll need to take advantage > > of that. As for other OS'es, we'll need to figure out details. If there > > are others out there with knowledge on the other OS'es I'd welcome their > > thoughts here. > > Ok, ... > > BTW, when the X server dies for whatever reason, it would take both > seats with him, right ? Right. > > > Anyway, for dual/multi-head on single graphic cards that support it, i > > > would like to have us separate more the part related to the graphic chip > > > from the part related to the output heads. Current multi-headed > > > solutions (on the same chip) use a chip sharing trick, and the pEnt to > > > store common information, but we could make this more formal, at least > > > at the device driver level, and have things like preinit and part of the > > > screeninit be done one time only for the entity, and then have multiple > > > calls to modeinit for setting the viewports, the zooming, the > > > outgoing resolution, the ddc info on the attached monitor and so on done > > > per head. > > > > multihead on a common framebuffer is obviously chip specific, so a lot > > of the details are specific to a driver. Again, for this, it should be > > doable now. > > Yes, but not easily. The way i would do it currently is to set a virtual > size that is the sum of both heads and inform the driver that the > framebuffer is shared somehow. This would need the user to setup things. > Another way of doing this is, in the driver, to wait that the > information about both heads mode are given to the driver, and then sum > them up and do a the framebuffer allocation then. This could be done in > preinit, i think, but again, you would need to get access to the other > head's framebuffer layout information and modify it, which is not the > cleanest thing to do. If we are going to rework things, we could as well > clean this up, no ? Take a closer look at the mga driver. Alan. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 05:42:05 2003 Received: from ns2.tudelft.nl (ns2.tudelft.nl [130.161.180.65]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KDg4Vr069576 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 05:42:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from m.j.w.sipkema@student.tudelft.nl) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.mailhost1.tudelft.nl by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) id <0HC100901VE203@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:42:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl (lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl [130.161.166.23]) by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) with ESMTP id <0HC1003KSVE2S6@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:42:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from boromir (boromir.lr-s.tudelft.nl [145.94.77.58]) by lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2656.59) id FR8LALQ2; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:42:04 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:41:53 +0100 From: Martijn Sipkema To: forum@XFree86.Org Message-id: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=6.0 tests=INVALID_MSGID,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_OE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * Subject: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: Martijn Sipkema List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: LS. How does SGI's Xdc extension and the OpenML MLdc library (http://www.khronos.org) compare to RandR? Will XFree86 5.0 use Xft for font rendering or might it (also) use Sun's STSF (http://stsf.sf.net)? --ms From postmaster Thu Mar 20 06:01:25 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KE1OVr070308 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:01:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alan@redhat.com) Received: (from alan@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KE1OM04940 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:01:24 -0500 From: Alan Cox Message-Id: <200303201401.h2KE1OM04940@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Subject: Re: [forum] Keith Packard issue To: forum@XFree86.Org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:01:24 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <1048166362.3846.28.camel@atlantis.marketpipe.com> from "Torgeir Veimo" at Mar 20, 2003 01:19:22 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > FYI: the Keith Packard issue is now on Slashdot.org. The "Keith Packard" issue or the XFree86 issue ? From postmaster Thu Mar 20 06:06:50 2003 Received: from ejc.ecomda.com (ejc.ecomda.com [212.18.24.150]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KE6nVr070518 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:06:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from torgeir@pobox.com) Received: (qmail 6091 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2003 14:08:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.0.248]) (torgeir@[212.36.39.235]) (envelope-sender ) by 0 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 20 Mar 2003 14:08:01 -0000 Subject: Re: [forum] Keith Packard issue From: Torgeir Veimo To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: <200303201401.h2KE1OM04940@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <200303201401.h2KE1OM04940@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1048169208.3846.33.camel@atlantis.marketpipe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-3) Date: 20 Mar 2003 14:06:48 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.3 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 14:01, Alan Cox wrote: > > FYI: the Keith Packard issue is now on Slashdot.org. > > The "Keith Packard" issue or the XFree86 issue ? Good point. I guess both. I wish there was more openess about it all. -- Torgeir Veimo From postmaster Thu Mar 20 06:11:06 2003 Received: from magic.shiman.com (magic.shiman.com [199.103.167.18]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KEB6Vr070702 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:11:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leon@magic.shiman.com) Received: from magic.shiman.com (magic.shiman.com [199.103.167.18]) by magic.shiman.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h2KEB5916946 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:11:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200303201411.h2KEB5916946@magic.shiman.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:11:05 -0500 (EST) From: Leon Shiman To: forum@XFree86.Org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: nzEMem3T/R4+EavvBd3QGA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 i86pc i386 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.7 required=6.0 tests=OPPORTUNITY_2,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * Subject: [forum] thank you david dawes! Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: Leon Shiman List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I would like to see this forum yield an open, fully internationalized group in which the common interests, goals, and responsiblities of Xfree86 and X.Org can be joined. Such a strengthened X Community, as providers and supporters of Standards based critical technology for the Free and Open Software revolution, has a unique opportunity to take on the active leadership role that the industry and the Community require, and in a form that encourages broad-based financial support. And now, of course, the details... Leon Shiman Associates Inc (SAI) 163 Tappan Street Brookline MA 02445 USA tel: (00)1.617.277.0087 Member of X.Org. Developers of MAS http://www.MediaApplicationServer.net From postmaster Thu Mar 20 06:21:45 2003 Received: from mwinf0302.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.28]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KELhVr063774 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:21:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0302.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1DFC000230 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:21:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w0vA-0000yz-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:21:28 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:21:24 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320142124.GA3651@iliana> References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320125351.GA2534@iliana> <20030320131241.GG867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030320131241.GG867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:12:41PM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > > > > > 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. This > > > > > still needs to be done. > > > > > > > > I personally am interested in dual/multi-head, and flexible > > > > configuration of viewports into a common framebuffer. I am not familiar > > > > with RandR, but i think it could be extended to allow dynamical head > > > > configuration or windows-zooming or other such functionality. > > > > > > I think multihead in a common framebuffer is doable in the current > > > infrastructure. > > > > You are saying that it should be possible to use RandR to switch the > > viewport of both heads dynamically, like we change resolutions today ? > > I'm not thinking RandR here. More a static approach by splitting the framebuffer > up into two portions, one for use as though it's an independent card. This is the static approach, we can already do this, i think, but what about being able to do dynamic changes ? The idea is to have a framebuffer zone we render to (with one XAA, one DRI and so on) and one, two or three independenct viewport into this. If you are not able to modify these viewports dynamically, you bar the door to features like screen mirroring (optionally with scaling) or windows zooming, which the matrox windows driver does already for example, and which are usefull, for people with sight problems or for doing presentations with a video projector for example. But then, you already read my arguments on the DRI mailing list, didn't you ? > Then XAA can share the graphics accelerator to write to both regions. I > understand this is the way of the mga driver that does it now. There'd > be a need for better framebuffer management to support depth switching for RandR > in this environment, which comes back to point 2. I am not so much interested by different depth, but by having one framebuffer of common depth, and be able to have two viewports looking into it freely, even overlapping or something such. > > > > > 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with independent > > > > > graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. > > > > > > > > What about running multiple seats on the different heads of a same video chip ? > > > > BTW, when the X server dies for whatever reason, it would take both > > seats with him, right ? > > Right. :(((( > > > > Anyway, for dual/multi-head on single graphic cards that support it, i > > > > would like to have us separate more the part related to the graphic chip > > > > from the part related to the output heads. Current multi-headed > > > > solutions (on the same chip) use a chip sharing trick, and the pEnt to > > > > store common information, but we could make this more formal, at least > > > > at the device driver level, and have things like preinit and part of the > > > > screeninit be done one time only for the entity, and then have multiple > > > > calls to modeinit for setting the viewports, the zooming, the > > > > outgoing resolution, the ddc info on the attached monitor and so on done > > > > per head. > > > > > > multihead on a common framebuffer is obviously chip specific, so a lot > > > of the details are specific to a driver. Again, for this, it should be > > > doable now. > > > > Yes, but not easily. The way i would do it currently is to set a virtual > > size that is the sum of both heads and inform the driver that the > > framebuffer is shared somehow. This would need the user to setup things. > > Another way of doing this is, in the driver, to wait that the > > information about both heads mode are given to the driver, and then sum > > them up and do a the framebuffer allocation then. This could be done in > > preinit, i think, but again, you would need to get access to the other > > head's framebuffer layout information and modify it, which is not the > > cleanest thing to do. If we are going to rework things, we could as well > > clean this up, no ? > > Take a closer look at the mga driver. Mmm, i did have a look, and, yes, it use the same kind of trick as you implemented in the glint driver for sharing the gamma between both pm3, does it not ? There are lot of places where there are checks for single/dual head (it doesn't support the parhelia triple head setup, i guess), and a refcount thingy to be able to do it only the first time. It is the same i have been doing in my new driver, but this is a hack, not a clean solution. If you look at these drivers, there are 3 phases : probe : you detect the hardware, share the entity, and allocate a pEnt if needed. preinit (a) : you parse the options, do some further chip and memory detection, and load modules. These are all things that can be common on both heads, after all, there is really no reason to detect the memory twice. Mostly this is done by checking the refcount, or using Isprimary or something such. preinit (b) : do some pixclock/mode/dpi settings. screeninit : set the actual video mode (first time we really write to the chip), save the previous state, and do some further initialization. It would be neater if we could do : probe : detect the hardware, count the heads. entityinit : the entity is shared by default, we do part (a) of preinit and the rest of the pEnt allocation done in probe currently. We also parse entity level option (from the device section, which is no more shared). We also reserve framebuffer memory for both upcoming heads. Called only one time per entity. preinit (or headinit) : we do part (b) of preinit, all things that are head specific. Here we detect the monitor, do per head clock/modes/whatever stuff, including parsing head specific options. Called once per head. ScreenInit : as usuel, called once per head, viewport information are separated between ingoing size (the framebuffer read) and outgoing size (the real mode), so we can do automatic zooming if the hardware supports it. This would allow for cleaner writing of drivers. Sure many of this is already possible, but in a hacky way. If we are planing about 5.0, let's do this cleanly, and think about it this way. Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 06:34:12 2003 Received: from smtp0.euronet.nl (smtp0.euronet.nl [194.134.35.141]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KEYBVr036619 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:34:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Piethein.Strengholt@iie.nl) Received: from omnibook (node0202.vpt.adsl.euronet.nl [194.134.242.2]) by smtp0.euronet.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E68224832 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:34:07 +0100 (MET) From: "Piethein Strengholt" To: Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:34:40 +0100 Message-ID: <000101c2eeed$d73352c0$1500a8c0@omnibook> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2EEF6.38F7BAC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.0 required=6.0 tests=HTML_50_70,HTML_FONT_COLOR_NAME,INVALID_MSGID, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * Subject: [forum] Future of X ? Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2EEF6.38F7BAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone could tell me what the future is of X now Keith Packard left the core team. I found Keith Packard quite interesting because he was really adding value to the project. So what's next? With managers like Gnome and KDE becoming more important we realy need a better underground!! So why not make the project more open? More developers and more supporters would really add some value. Maybe it's also an idea to split up the drivers from the project. Lets release Ati and Nvidia themselves. And why is there no roadmap ? I can't find anything about Xfree 5. News is very important to keep people's interrest in the project. And maybe Keith is right. A fork or maybe should Xfree be rewriten from scratch. X sounds very old to me and it's slow development is really keeping desktop users away from linux. So please make this project great! ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2EEF6.38F7BAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Anyone could tell me what the future is of X now = Keith Packard left the core team. I found Keith Packard = quite interesting because he was really adding value to the project. So = what’s next?

 <= /font>

With managers = like Gnome and KDE becoming more important we realy need a better = underground!!

 <= /font>

So why not = make the project more open? More developers and more supporters would really add = some value. Maybe it’s also an idea to split up the drivers from the = project. Lets release Ati and Nvidia themselves.

 <= /font>

And why is = there no roadmap ? I can’t find anything about Xfree 5. News is very important to = keep people’s interrest in the project.

 <= /font>

And maybe = Keith is right. A fork or maybe should Xfree be rewriten = from scratch. X sounds very old to me and it’s slow development is = really keeping desktop users away from linux.

 

So please make this project great! =

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2EEF6.38F7BAC0-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 06:49:42 2003 Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (fairlite.demon.co.uk [158.152.52.252]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KEnfVr020742 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:49:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alanh@fairlite.demon.co.uk) Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2KEnfI0001882 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:49:41 GMT Received: (from alanh@localhost) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h2KEnfaW001880 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:49:41 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:49:41 +0000 From: Alan Hourihane To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? Message-ID: <20030320144941.GI867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> References: <000101c2eeed$d73352c0$1500a8c0@omnibook> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000101c2eeed$d73352c0$1500a8c0@omnibook> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 03:34:40 +0100, Piethein Strengholt wrote: > And why is there no roadmap ? I can't find anything about Xfree 5. News > is very important to keep people's interrest in the project. Read the archives of this list, you've just missed a post about this. Alan. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 06:51:32 2003 Received: from ebene.inrialpes.fr (ebene.inrialpes.fr [194.199.18.70]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KEpVVr020862 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:51:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from David.Bellot@inria.fr) Received: from imap-serv.inrialpes.fr (imap-serv.inrialpes.fr [194.199.18.72]) by ebene.inrialpes.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2KEpSE19036 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:51:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from inria.fr (pastel.inrialpes.fr [194.199.21.71]) by imap-serv.inrialpes.fr (8.11.6/8.11.3/ImagV2) with ESMTP id h2KEpTd15020 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:51:29 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3E79D4E0.5050305@inria.fr> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:49:04 +0100 From: David Bellot User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030313 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? References: <000101c2eeed$d73352c0$1500a8c0@omnibook> In-Reply-To: <000101c2eeed$d73352c0$1500a8c0@omnibook> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-10.6 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > > > Anyone could tell me what the future is of X now Keith Packard left > the core team. I found Keith Packard quite interesting because he was > really adding value to the project. So what’s next? > > With managers like Gnome and KDE becoming more important we realy need > a better underground!! > > So why not make the project more open? More developers and more > supporters would really add some value. Maybe it’s also an idea to > split up the drivers from the project. Lets release Ati and Nvidia > themselves. > > And why is there no roadmap ? I can’t find anything about Xfree 5. > News is very important to keep people’s interrest in the project. > > And maybe Keith is right. A fork or maybe should Xfree be rewriten > from scratch. X sounds very old to me and it’s slow development is > really keeping desktop users away from linux. > I agree with you. Despite the fact that X is a very nice piece of code, X is old and need at least to be modified in order to take out all of those old features that nobody never wants to use. In fact, X should have a more light kernel, like an operating system, to be more scalable : from PDA to the latest SGI station. In fact, given the fact that more and more people are using the two leading desktop environment GNOME and KDE, there will be no need for a so-complex system like X. GNOME and KDE are encapsulating almost everything. I don't say that X must go away, but X has to be renewed to be more competitive ! * We need to have a better approach for drivers : ATI, NVidia, etc... need it ! * Where is the roadmap ? Is there a "private" roadmap ? * GCC was not a very open project. Now, GCC is open and has been partially rewritten. Everybody agrees to say that it was the best decision ! * What needs the average Joe user ? More features ? Speed ? Connectivity with a CRAY ZXY ? Good philosophy of open source? High framerate under UT2003 ? PDA compliance ? Mozilla and Evolution on its PDA ? Latest Radeon/GForce/etc... support (as soon as those cards are released) ? X rulez, but X is old, slow and development of X is more old and slow. Wake up, folks ! DB -- --------------------------------------------------- David Bellot, PhD SHARP project - INRIA Rhône-Alpes ZIRST - 655 avenue de l'Europe 38330 Montbonnot Saint Martin FRANCE Email : David.Bellot@inria.fr Web : http://www.inrialpes.fr/sharp/people/bellot --------------------------------------------------- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 06:54:18 2003 Received: from ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (ms-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.130]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KEsIVr020945 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 06:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nolden@kde.org) Received: from ms-1 (ms-dienst.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.132]) by ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 1 (built Aug 19 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HC100LO2YPBPF@ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:53:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.RWTH-Aachen.DE ([134.130.3.1]) by ms-1 (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.2 ) ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:53:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from 192.168.1.10 (p5092781D.dip.t-dialin.net [80.146.120.29]) by relay.rwth-aachen.de (8.12.8/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h2KErXfv027961; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:53:34 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:53:32 +0100 From: Ralf Nolden Subject: Re: [forum] Keith Packard issue In-reply-to: <200303201401.h2KE1OM04940@devserv.devel.redhat.com> To: forum@XFree86.Org, Alan Cox Message-id: <200303201553.32816.nolden@kde.org> Organization: The KDesktop Environment MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Content-description: clearsigned data User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <200303201401.h2KE1OM04940@devserv.devel.redhat.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.5 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,NOSPAM_INC,PGP_SIGNATURE,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 20 March 2003 15:01, Alan Cox wrote: > > FYI: the Keith Packard issue is now on Slashdot.org. > > The "Keith Packard" issue or the XFree86 issue ? Correct. The post which is going on all news sites now is IMHO one of the most insulting posts that I ever read. Everyone who knows Keithp in person knows that we're discussing a thing here that is bugging literally everyone: developers from desktop projects like KDE and GNOME, distributors and UNIX derivates such as the BSD's and in the end, users and support companies who have to live with the stuff they get from XFree86. Compared to the development speed of projects like the Linux kernel or KDE, XFree86 lags behind *ages* and is not the most responsive at all. Keith has been one outstanding example with big ties to the community and acknowledgement for the problems that everyone suffers when it comes to XFree86 and tried to help with innovative ideas that just *have* to be solved on that layer of the OS (whatever Unix you use). My best read today was that people are thinking about releasing their own versions of graphics drivers because the CVS access to XFree86 is restricted to just about 15 people. This is just *unbeleivable*..... My personal 2 euro cents but I guess I'm expressing something that bugs most KDE hackers.... Ralf > > _______________________________________________ > Forum mailing list > Forum@XFree86.Org > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum - -- We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralf Nolden nolden@kde.org The K Desktop Environment The KDevelop Project http://www.kde.org http://www.kdevelop.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+edXsu0nKi+w1Ky8RAmdOAJ9qz9G9o0LynyaWO+/oRKFP9eXg0wCbBp2i vOGsAoWiwG6xnasqaJoMWoQ= =Yd1q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 07:04:06 2003 Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (fairlite.demon.co.uk [158.152.52.252]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KF44Vr021269 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:04:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alanh@fairlite.demon.co.uk) Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2KF44I0001897 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:04:04 GMT Received: (from alanh@localhost) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h2KF43fJ001895 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:04:03 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:04:03 +0000 From: Alan Hourihane To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320150403.GJ867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320125351.GA2534@iliana> <20030320131241.GG867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320142124.GA3651@iliana> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030320142124.GA3651@iliana> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 03:21:24 +0100, Sven Luther wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:12:41PM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > > > > > > 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. This > > > > > > still needs to be done. > > > > > > > > > > I personally am interested in dual/multi-head, and flexible > > > > > configuration of viewports into a common framebuffer. I am not familiar > > > > > with RandR, but i think it could be extended to allow dynamical head > > > > > configuration or windows-zooming or other such functionality. > > > > > > > > I think multihead in a common framebuffer is doable in the current > > > > infrastructure. > > > > > > You are saying that it should be possible to use RandR to switch the > > > viewport of both heads dynamically, like we change resolutions today ? > > > > I'm not thinking RandR here. More a static approach by splitting the framebuffer > > up into two portions, one for use as though it's an independent card. > > This is the static approach, we can already do this, i think, but what That's what I've already said that we can do this. > about being able to do dynamic changes ? The idea is to have a > framebuffer zone we render to (with one XAA, one DRI and so on) and one, > two or three independenct viewport into this. If you are not able to > modify these viewports dynamically, you bar the door to features like > screen mirroring (optionally with scaling) or windows zooming, which the > matrox windows driver does already for example, and which are usefull, > for people with sight problems or for doing presentations with a video > projector for example. But then, you already read my arguments on the > DRI mailing list, didn't you ? Nope, I must have missed that, but it comes down to framebuffer management as I've already said. I think I'll contact Ian Romanick to forward his current document here, regarding framebuffer management though. > > Then XAA can share the graphics accelerator to write to both regions. I > > understand this is the way of the mga driver that does it now. There'd > > be a need for better framebuffer management to support depth switching for RandR > > in this environment, which comes back to point 2. > > I am not so much interested by different depth, but by having one > framebuffer of common depth, and be able to have two viewports looking > into it freely, even overlapping or something such. It's still framebuffer management. > > > > > > 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with independent > > > > > > graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. > > > > > > > > > > What about running multiple seats on the different heads of a same video chip ? > > > > > > BTW, when the X server dies for whatever reason, it would take both > > > seats with him, right ? > > > > Right. > > :(((( > > > > > > Anyway, for dual/multi-head on single graphic cards that support it, i > > > > > would like to have us separate more the part related to the graphic chip > > > > > from the part related to the output heads. Current multi-headed > > > > > solutions (on the same chip) use a chip sharing trick, and the pEnt to > > > > > store common information, but we could make this more formal, at least > > > > > at the device driver level, and have things like preinit and part of the > > > > > screeninit be done one time only for the entity, and then have multiple > > > > > calls to modeinit for setting the viewports, the zooming, the > > > > > outgoing resolution, the ddc info on the attached monitor and so on done > > > > > per head. > > > > > > > > multihead on a common framebuffer is obviously chip specific, so a lot > > > > of the details are specific to a driver. Again, for this, it should be > > > > doable now. > > > > > > Yes, but not easily. The way i would do it currently is to set a virtual > > > size that is the sum of both heads and inform the driver that the > > > framebuffer is shared somehow. This would need the user to setup things. > > > Another way of doing this is, in the driver, to wait that the > > > information about both heads mode are given to the driver, and then sum > > > them up and do a the framebuffer allocation then. This could be done in > > > preinit, i think, but again, you would need to get access to the other > > > head's framebuffer layout information and modify it, which is not the > > > cleanest thing to do. If we are going to rework things, we could as well > > > clean this up, no ? > > > > Take a closer look at the mga driver. > > Mmm, i did have a look, and, yes, it use the same kind of trick as you > implemented in the glint driver for sharing the gamma between both pm3, > does it not ? There are lot of places where there are checks for > single/dual head (it doesn't support the parhelia triple head setup, i > guess), and a refcount thingy to be able to do it only the first time. It > is the same i have been doing in my new driver, but this is a hack, not > a clean solution. > > If you look at these drivers, there are 3 phases : > > probe : you detect the hardware, share the entity, and allocate a pEnt > if needed. > > preinit (a) : you parse the options, do some further chip and memory > detection, and load modules. These are all things that can be common > on both heads, after all, there is really no reason to detect the > memory twice. Mostly this is done by checking the refcount, or using > Isprimary or something such. > > preinit (b) : do some pixclock/mode/dpi settings. > > screeninit : set the actual video mode (first time we really write to > the chip), save the previous state, and do some further > initialization. > > It would be neater if we could do : > > probe : detect the hardware, count the heads. > > entityinit : the entity is shared by default, we do part (a) of > preinit and the rest of the pEnt allocation done in probe currently. > We also parse entity level option (from the device section, which is > no more shared). We also reserve framebuffer memory for both upcoming > heads. > Called only one time per entity. > > preinit (or headinit) : we do part (b) of preinit, all things that are > head specific. Here we detect the monitor, do per head > clock/modes/whatever stuff, including parsing head specific options. > Called once per head. > > ScreenInit : as usuel, called once per head, viewport information are > separated between ingoing size (the framebuffer read) and outgoing > size (the real mode), so we can do automatic zooming if the hardware > supports it. > > This would allow for cleaner writing of drivers. Sure many of this is > already possible, but in a hacky way. If we are planing about 5.0, let's > do this cleanly, and think about it this way. There's undoubtably some work to be done to clean up the driver interface. I'm not quite sure I completely understand what your splitting out above, but if you can base what your thinking on the DESIGN document in xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/doc/DESIGN and expand to the level of detail that exists in this document I could make more comments. Thanks Sven, Alan. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 07:08:27 2003 Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (fairlite.demon.co.uk [158.152.52.252]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KF8PVr021445 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:08:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alanh@fairlite.demon.co.uk) Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2KEmNI0001875; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:48:23 GMT Received: (from alanh@localhost) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h2KEmLSG001873; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:48:21 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:48:21 +0000 From: Alan Hourihane To: forum@XFree86.Org Cc: dri-devel Subject: Re: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X Message-ID: <20030320144821.GH867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> References: <20030320001031.B7189@xfree86.org> <3E79A7FE.4070100@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E79A7FE.4070100@yahoo.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:37:34 +0000, Keith Whitwell wrote: > XFree86 BOD wrote: > > >It has been brought to the attention of the XFree86 Core Team that one > >of its members, Keith Packard, has been actively (but privately) seeking > >out support for a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is > >also in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested > >interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and the > >future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclose these concerns > >within the context of the XFree86 Core Team, which makes his membership > >of that team unviable. As a consequence, Keith Packard is no longer a > >member of the XFree86 Core Team. > > What specifically does the XFree86 bod see as being wrong with the idea of > a 'by-invitation-only group' managing X server development? Isn't that > exactly what the core team & xfree86 BOD have been doing all along? Not exactly. Long ago, that was probably right, but these days you could probably see the Core Team as a bunch of committers to the CVS, obviously with their own areas of technical knowledge as well. And yes, we've met on occasion, but more in the reality of a coding frenzy to work on what we wanted to work on. More recently to talk about XFree86 5.0, of which I've sent what I wrote down to this list already. As for the BOD list, the Core Team doesn't know what goes on within that list either, not that it bothers me at all. > Maybe the core team & bod could explain what is being hinted as a new > spirit of openness and how that is proposed to effect the XFree86 > development process and strategy? Will it mean forinstance an end to the > sort of behind-closed-doors discussions that appear to have lead to this > announcement? You'd be surprised if you saw what is actually discussed on the Core Team lists. Not much at all, apart from recent events that led up to this email. I have to say, that a lot of the Core Team is still in the dark on why Keith decided to divert his attention away from XFree86 in the way that has transpired. We're as much in the dark as you Keith Whitwell (thought I'd better add your surname to avoid confusion). > Please forgive my somewhat cynical tone... The best strategy to fight a > fork would be to open up XFree & thereby make forking unnecessary. It > seems like that is whats being attempted, but can the leopard change its > spots? Sometimes I wonder if it knows it has them. Apart from when I was a teenager, I can remember having spots. > OK - some concrete proposals, with cynicism turned off: > - Make BOD minutes public That would be good, if I knew there were any minutes, which I don't think there are. > - Open all core team meetings to the public, and if feasible post > minutes, transcripts or even audio feeds. As for my 'XFree86 5.0 TODO' email, that's what was intentional. > - Extend CVS access to regular contributors. Use scripts or > whatever to control access to subtrees if you want. This comes up from time to time, and I'm sure will get discussed even more. I know there have been offers to others for CVS commit access, and some have refused and some have accepted. The consensus of who gets commit access has always been - if they show competance at sending patches in, then after a period of time, no doubt they'll get it. It's the same as the DRI, but with more of a prolonged period of evaluating that persons patches. I guess this 'prolonged' period, is the stickling point for most. > - Consider dropping the BOD and core team ideas in favour of an > elected committee. Examine recent trends in managing other large projects. As I mentioned above, think of the current Core Team, as a bunch of committers that review what comes into the various fixes/patches lists. Then extend the Core Team to specialized areas too in which they were forseen, and as such were granted CVS access. If the community see these teams as closed groups, then like you say, we disband these groups, or try and put out a better explanation of what they mean. > Just generally get down off your high horses and accept that the developers > out there won't wreck xfree86 if you let them participate & accept them as > equals... I understand this point, and it comes down to the fact that there still needs to be some level of control of who gets commit access, just like any other open source project. It's probably not moving quick enough for some though. > Of course, if xfree starts accepting more developers, it will make it > harder for us in the dri tree as we tend to benefit from xfree's > exclusionary practices -- developers find it easier to get cvs access for > DRI than XFree86, so we pick up some talented developers that get fed up of > waiting for patches to be applied to xfree cvs. But then again, what is > the dri tree but a friendly fork to workaround for xfree's closed > development methodology? If xfree really opened itself up, the first thing > they'd do is extend an invitation to merge with the dri project, right? > Maybe that's the acid test, or maybe it's whether we'd accept... Then shut up, if you don't want your DRI developers nicked :0) Only kidding. Alan. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 07:16:12 2003 Received: from gatemaster.ivimey.org (wotug.org [194.106.52.201]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KFGBVr013428 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruth.Ivimey-Cook@ivimey.org) Received: from robinton.ivimey.org ([192.168.0.5]) by gatemaster.ivimey.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18w1m5-0000C7-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:16:09 +0000 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.0.20030320145403.00baf910@mailhost.ivimey.org> X-Sender: ruthc@mailhost.ivimey.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:16:02 +0000 To: forum@XFree86.Org From: Ruth Ivimey-Cook Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: >So, to spark discussions, here it is.... >1. Redesign of XAA, >2. FBManager extensions. Neither of these seem to me to be urgent requirements, but I guess that's my lack of info at fault. >3. Xlib locale removal. By removing all the Xlc code from libX11 and see >if we can layer it on top of iconv. Need to discuss the advantages and >disadvantages of such a task. The main benefit being unicode support? Otherwise, what? >4. DGA - do we leave in, or do we shelve it ? Leave, for the moment. >5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. This >still needs to be done. IMO required ASAP, at least for single-head. >6. PseudoColor emulation. Egbert Eich has written some preliminary code >for this, and we're hoping he'll be able to release it soon. Is there a known hold-up to this work? Presumably it just extends the number of visuals available to truecolor hardware? >7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is obviously >tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do you >correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. Definitely good. Lets solve the problem for one server first; multiple servers will I guess have to use some sort of ID or port-matching technique, which is horribly platform dependent (at least in how to get hold of such info). >8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with >independent graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. What is holding this up? It seems as if it ought to be a no-brainer? >9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension >replacing Xlib drawing routines. What status is this? Is there a demand? How does it differ in capability from the Display PostScript code. >10. Window translucency. Yes!. Better alpha-blend control in general. >11. XFixes extension. For? >12. Gamma corrected RENDER For? >13. Potential DIX/DDX changes. In the interface position, or structure, or what? 14. Native SVG support. -- SVG Extension? 15. Improved user interface/properties access to the server, esp. to reconfigure it dynamically (e.g. extending xset). Regards, Ruth From postmaster Thu Mar 20 07:20:02 2003 Received: from web11301.mail.yahoo.com (web11301.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.204]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KFK2Vr060466 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:20:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from agd5f@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.135.61.199] by web11301.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:20:01 PST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:20:01 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Deucher To: forum@XFree86.Org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.6 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Some other suggestions: - integrating Gatos code - perhaps provideing better multimedia interfaces, maybe some thing that integrates Xv, XvMC, etc. Providing YUV surfaces using both the overlay engine and OpenGL textures. - as Sven mentioned better Dualhead support; Support for Dualhead DRI for both multi-card and single card multi-head scenarios. being able to dymanically switch the video overlay hardware to the head a video is being played on instead of binding it to a single head for hardware that supports it. - a more dynamic X server. The ability to change configs, change dualhead layouts, tv out, etc. on the fly. User definable hot buttons to change configs, outputs etc. - improved power mangement support (maybe start with Michel/Charl's radeon suspend patch) - integrating DMX - Release more often! smaller releases, or releasing updates to just certain modules, etc. Alex ----------------------------------------- Well, As this forum is for discussing all X stuff, here goes with a few notes from an XFree86 Core Team meeting from a little while back. So in the spirit of openness I thought I should discuss it here. This is stuff that we can think of that needs doing for XFree86 5.0, but by no means is it limited to this list or even guarantee'ing anything on the list will make it for 5.0. So, to spark discussions, here it is.... 1. Redesign of XAA, so that multiple depth pixmaps can be stored in offscreen memory and the creation of a new directive - called the XAASurface. There will undoubtably be driver work involved to port to the new interface. The techinical lead on this is Mark Vojkovich. I believe Mark has a substantial portion of this done, if not all. 2. FBManager extensions. This still needs furthur thought to encompass the requirements of all bases, but, the DRI is one that needs much more flexible memory management of the framebuffer. Secondly, it's been requested before for linear allocation, rather than the current area allocation code for some Xv implementations. 3. Xlib locale removal. By removing all the Xlc code from libX11 and see if we can layer it on top of iconv. Need to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of such a task. 4. DGA - do we leave in, or do we shelve it ? 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. This still needs to be done. 6. PseudoColor emulation. Egbert Eich has written some preliminary code for this, and we're hoping he'll be able to release it soon. 7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is obviously tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do you correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with independent graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. 9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension replacing Xlib drawing routines. 10. Window translucency. 11. XFixes extension. 12. Gamma corrected RENDER 13. Potential DIX/DDX changes. Any other topics, please bring up for discussion. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From postmaster Thu Mar 20 07:35:18 2003 Received: from ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (ms-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.130]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KFZIVr021304 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:35:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nolden@kde.org) Received: from ms-2 (ms-2 [134.130.3.131]) by ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 1 (built Aug 19 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HC200LM70EOXK@ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:30:25 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.RWTH-Aachen.DE ([134.130.3.1]) by ms-2 (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.2 ) ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:30:24 +0100 (MET) Received: from 192.168.1.10 (p5092781D.dip.t-dialin.net [80.146.120.29]) by relay.rwth-aachen.de (8.12.8/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h2KFUMfv004558; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:30:23 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:30:21 +0100 From: Ralf Nolden Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO In-reply-to: <5.2.0.9.0.20030320145403.00baf910@mailhost.ivimey.org> To: forum@XFree86.Org, Ruth Ivimey-Cook Message-id: <200303201630.22034.nolden@kde.org> Organization: The KDesktop Environment MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Content-description: clearsigned data User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030320145403.00baf910@mailhost.ivimey.org> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-11.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,NOSPAM_INC,PGP_SIGNATURE,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 20 March 2003 16:16, Ruth Ivimey-Cook wrote: > >9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension > >replacing Xlib drawing routines. > > What status is this? Is there a demand? How does it differ in capability > from the Display PostScript code. I think MacOS X does most of the animation stuff with postscript (the minimizing of windows for example). The usage of such features need to be very transparently and easily made through the toolkits. Don't know any specifics but I think there is a demand to get such cool features like OS X has. Ralf - -- We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralf Nolden nolden@kde.org The K Desktop Environment The KDevelop Project http://www.kde.org http://www.kdevelop.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+ed6Ou0nKi+w1Ky8RAvxhAJ0YPYD3aVTZM3Sz+x01vrQdOmzUmwCgkmRQ R6PYcdvaQFG0zyHnsfCcxqI= =kFl5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 07:49:28 2003 Received: from fries.net (root@ns0.fries.net [66.210.106.26]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KFnRVr053841 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:49:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from todd@shadow.fries.net) Received: from shadow.fries.net (todd@localhost.fries.net [IPv6:::1]) by fries.net (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KFjKjg004672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-DSS-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:45:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by shadow.fries.net (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h2KFjIT0006245 for forum@xfree86.org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:45:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:45:18 -0600 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: forum@xfree86.org Message-ID: <20030320154518.GG9122@openbsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i X-Operating-System: OpenBSD shadow.fries.net 3.3 GENERIC X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=6.0 tests=SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] thoughts Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: todd@fries.net List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I have wishes for the future of XFree86 that I believe I am incapable of implementing; perhaps with some coaching and luck at finding free time may change that, but suffice it to say I am responding to the call for future desires of X. Future direction I personally would like to see: - lower memory footprint - more optional modules/protocols - grandfathering of old protocol support, perhaps via an 'old' module, to assist on the above - more effort at bringing 'legacy' drivers from 3.3.6 to 4.x - support for IPv6 - no change in license terms (free for all, including Keith to do his own thing) I believe Keith Packard's kdrive does the first two (are there _any_ plans to support IPv6 in X?). I would like to thank everyone for their hard work on X that has brought us to this point. Without it, many of us may not even be interested in UNIX as a desktop + server os. Thanks for listening, -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net Free Daemon Consulting, LLC Land: 405-748-4596 http://FreeDaemonConsulting.fries.net Mobile: 405-203-6124 "..in support of free software solutions." Key fingerprint: 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A Key: http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt (last updated 2003/03/13 07:14:10) From postmaster Thu Mar 20 07:54:29 2003 Received: from mwinf0403.wanadoo.fr (smtp3.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.27]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KFsSVr072411 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:54:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0403.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0247750003B3 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:54:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w2Mx-0001Hx-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:54:15 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:54:14 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320155414.GA4547@iliana> References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320125351.GA2534@iliana> <20030320131241.GG867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320142124.GA3651@iliana> <20030320150403.GJ867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030320150403.GJ867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 03:04:03PM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 03:21:24 +0100, Sven Luther wrote: > > about being able to do dynamic changes ? The idea is to have a > > framebuffer zone we render to (with one XAA, one DRI and so on) and one, > > two or three independenct viewport into this. If you are not able to > > modify these viewports dynamically, you bar the door to features like > > screen mirroring (optionally with scaling) or windows zooming, which the > > matrox windows driver does already for example, and which are usefull, > > for people with sight problems or for doing presentations with a video > > projector for example. But then, you already read my arguments on the > > DRI mailing list, didn't you ? > > Nope, I must have missed that, but it comes down to framebuffer management > as I've already said. I think I'll contact Ian Romanick to forward his > current document here, regarding framebuffer management though. Yes and no, the main idea is to separate the framebuffer management thingy (either for framebuffer memory and for offscreen pixmaps or other succ) from the viewports. You have the framebuffer, where the graphic core/processor renders to, and you have then one, two or more viewports that allow you (the human looking at the screen) to look at the content of this framebuffer, these viewports correspond to the DAC or Digital Ports, or even Video Ports, that allow you to see the content of the framebuffer. These viewports take a source zone (x/y position of the framebuffer in the virtual memory + width/height) and an outgoing mode for the monitor, flatpanel, etc. And it is this viewport setting that does not come down to framebuffer management, and for which i hope we can come up with a propper solution. > > This would allow for cleaner writing of drivers. Sure many of this is > > already possible, but in a hacky way. If we are planing about 5.0, let's > > do this cleanly, and think about it this way. > > There's undoubtably some work to be done to clean up the driver interface. :))) > I'm not quite sure I completely understand what your splitting out above, > but if you can base what your thinking on the DESIGN document in > xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/doc/DESIGN and expand to the level of > detail that exists in this document I could make more comments. Ok, i will try to come up with such a document, i will need some tim for it though, and, well, i am mostly familiar only with the driver part, not with whatever is done above the driver. Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:03:30 2003 Received: from Cantor.suse.de (ns.suse.de [213.95.15.193]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KG3UVr072828 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:03:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sndirsch@suse.de) Received: from Hermes.suse.de (Hermes.suse.de [213.95.15.136]) by Cantor.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF9014B19 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:03:29 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: shannon.suse.de: sndirsch set sender to sndirsch@suse.de using -f Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:03:26 +0100 From: Stefan Dirsch To: forum@XFree86.Org Message-ID: <20030320160326.GA7772@shannon.suse.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.5 required=6.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT,X_AUTH_WARNING version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Bugzilla Mails Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi It's more a minor issue. Is it really required to send all Bugzilla mails to xfree86@xfree86.org? Wouldn't it be sufficient to send these mails to assignee, reporter and persons in Cc: ? Regards, Stefan Public Key available ---------------------------------------------------- Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SuSE Linux AG Tel: 0911-740530 Deutschherrnstr. 15-19 FAX: +49 911 741 77 55 D-90429 Nuernberg http://www.suse.de Germany ---------------------------------------------------- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:11:53 2003 Received: from ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (ms-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.130]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGBrVr076627 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:11:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nolden@kde.org) Received: from ms-2 (ms-2 [134.130.3.131]) by ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 1 (built Aug 19 2002)) with ESMTP id <0HC200M3B26Q85@ms-dienst.rz.rwth-aachen.de> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:08:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from relay.RWTH-Aachen.DE ([134.130.3.1]) by ms-2 (MailMonitor for SMTP v1.2.2 ) ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:08:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from 192.168.1.10 (p5092781D.dip.t-dialin.net [80.146.120.29]) by relay.rwth-aachen.de (8.12.8/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h2KG8mfv011268; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:08:49 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:08:48 +0100 From: Ralf Nolden Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO In-reply-to: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> To: forum@XFree86.Org, Alex Deucher Message-id: <200303201708.48146.nolden@kde.org> Organization: The KDesktop Environment MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Content-description: clearsigned data User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-11.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,NOSPAM_INC,PGP_SIGNATURE,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_KMAIL version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 20 March 2003 16:20, Alex Deucher wrote: > - a more dynamic X server. The ability to change configs, change > dualhead layouts, tv out, etc. on the fly. User definable hot buttons > to change configs, outputs etc. The s3switch program may help for S3 cards and serve for an example for cards that allow switching, there's also a KDE frontend (ks3switch). Would be nice if that gets integrated with a common interface into X for all cards who support this. Ralf > > - improved power mangement support (maybe start with Michel/Charl's > radeon suspend patch) > > - integrating DMX > > - Release more often! smaller releases, or releasing updates to just > certain modules, etc. > > > > Alex > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Well, > > As this forum is for discussing all X stuff, here goes with a few notes > from an XFree86 Core Team meeting from a little while back. So in the > spirit of openness I thought I should discuss it here. > > This is stuff that we can think of that needs doing for XFree86 5.0, > but > by no means is it limited to this list or even guarantee'ing anything > on the list will make it for 5.0. > > So, to spark discussions, here it is.... > > 1. Redesign of XAA, so that multiple depth pixmaps can be stored in > offscreen > memory and the creation of a new directive - called the XAASurface. > There > will undoubtably be driver work involved to port to the new interface. > The > techinical lead on this is Mark Vojkovich. I believe Mark has a > substantial > portion of this done, if not all. > > 2. FBManager extensions. This still needs furthur thought to encompass > the requirements of all bases, but, the DRI is one that needs much more > flexible memory management of the framebuffer. Secondly, it's been > requested before for linear allocation, rather than the current area > allocation code for some Xv implementations. > > 3. Xlib locale removal. By removing all the Xlc code from libX11 and > see > if we can layer it on top of iconv. Need to discuss the advantages and > disadvantages of such a task. > > 4. DGA - do we leave in, or do we shelve it ? > > 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. > This > still needs to be done. > > 6. PseudoColor emulation. Egbert Eich has written some preliminary code > for this, and we're hoping he'll be able to release it soon. > > 7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is > obviously > tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do you > correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. > > 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with > independent > graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. > > 9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension > replacing > Xlib drawing routines. > > 10. Window translucency. > > 11. XFixes extension. > > 12. Gamma corrected RENDER > > 13. Potential DIX/DDX changes. > > Any other topics, please bring up for discussion. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Forum mailing list > Forum@XFree86.Org > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum - -- We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralf Nolden nolden@kde.org The K Desktop Environment The KDevelop Project http://www.kde.org http://www.kdevelop.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+eeeQu0nKi+w1Ky8RAvlVAJ9YqSVB+X05P4JqIsxIPVn+R3EL7gCgk1cn efST7yEAUOTJrrNPaKAd8q0= =ZmJr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:07:51 2003 Received: from scream.east.isi.edu (mail@scream.east.isi.edu [65.114.169.27]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KG7pVr072949 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:07:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cworth@east.isi.edu) Received: from cworth by scream.east.isi.edu with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w2a6-0006FM-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:07:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15993.59220.771240.143445@scream.east.isi.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:07:48 -0500 To: forum@xfree86.org X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under Emacs 21.2.2 From: Carl Worth X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.7 required=6.0 tests=SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Xr/Xc and SVG status (was: XFree86 5.0 TODO) Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 Ruth Ivimey-Cook wrote: > On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 Alan Hourihane wrote: > >> 9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension >> replacing Xlib drawing routines. > > What status is this? I've been actively developing the Xr/Xc code. There hasn't been a decent forum at xfree86.org for discussing it since the inexplicable termination of the render@xfree86.org list (I truly miss the high SNR of that list). The status is that the libraries do exist (see xsvg.org) and have been used for some test programs. There are still lots of planned but unfinished features, (eg. decent text management). What's there already seems to work, but the libraries have not yet been used in any serious development effort --- once that happens I'm sure the deficiencies will become much more apparent. > Is there a demand? Xr is an attempt to provide an easy-to-use, high-level interface to the rendering support provided by the RENDER extension. Xc sits under it and emulates the functionality of RENDER on the client side for servers without the RENDER extension. Xc also allows all of the Xr operations to target a client-side buffer without needing an X server at all (I'm about ready to commit this functionality any day now). So if you want to have access to the (hopefully) hardware-accelerated rendering exported by RENDER, but you'd prefer to be able to work at the level of spline paths rather than trapezoids, then Xr may be able to help. > How does it differ in capability from the Display PostScript code. The essential difference is that Xr does not embed an entire interpreter for the PostScript language into the server. Xr borrows the imaging operators from PostScript, but ignores the rest of the PostScript language --- simply providing a C interface instead. Also, Xr uses the RENDER imaging model which has support for alpha-blending so it actually matches the PDF 1.4 model more than the PostScript model. > 14. Native SVG support. -- SVG Extension? Funny you should mention that. One of the first test applications for Xr/Xc is an SVG library/viewer called xsvg. Take a look at some of the test renderings if you're interested: http://xsvg.org/status/ Xr makes it quite easy to do graphics like this. As far as an extension goes, it probably only makes sense to put something in the server if it can be directly supported by the graphics hardware. The RENDER extension should provide all the server support necessary in this sense for SVG graphics. This thread was originally about the roadmap of XFree86 5.0, so I should comment on that I think. Xr/Xc exist as client-side libraries, so it shouldn't be a problem at all to release them independent of any X server release. -Carl -- Carl Worth USC Information Sciences Institute cworth@isi.edu From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:08:11 2003 Received: from hicks.adgrafix.com (hicks.adgrafix.com [64.55.193.2]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KG86Vr072962 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keith@tungstengraphics.com) Received: from tungstengraphics.com ([213.78.159.49]) by hicks.adgrafix.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h2KG85P15128; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:08:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3E79E766.1020503@tungstengraphics.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:08:06 +0000 From: Keith Whitwell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020830 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org CC: dri-devel Subject: Re: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X References: <20030320001031.B7189@xfree86.org> <3E79A7FE.4070100@yahoo.com> <20030320144821.GH867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=6.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Alan Hourihane wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:37:34 +0000, Keith Whitwell wrote: > >>XFree86 BOD wrote: >> >> >>>It has been brought to the attention of the XFree86 Core Team that one >>>of its members, Keith Packard, has been actively (but privately) seeking >>>out support for a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is >>>also in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested >>>interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and the >>>future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclose these concerns >>>within the context of the XFree86 Core Team, which makes his membership >>>of that team unviable. As a consequence, Keith Packard is no longer a >>>member of the XFree86 Core Team. >> >>What specifically does the XFree86 bod see as being wrong with the idea of >>a 'by-invitation-only group' managing X server development? Isn't that >>exactly what the core team & xfree86 BOD have been doing all along? > > > Not exactly. Long ago, that was probably right, but these days you > could probably see the Core Team as a bunch of committers to the CVS, > obviously with their own areas of technical knowledge as well. > And yes, we've met on occasion, but more in the reality of a coding > frenzy to work on what we wanted to work on. It's a spin thing. "Core team" sounds exclusionary, where as "Developers who have been granted CVS access" sounds pretty inclusive... and even more inclusive if there is regular induction of developers into that group. > More recently to talk about > XFree86 5.0, of which I've sent what I wrote down to this list already. Doesn't this contradict your assertion that you're just a bunch of committers? Yes, I appreciate your post today, but would it (or the openness post) have happened if keithp was still a happy core teamer? > As for the BOD list, the Core Team doesn't know what goes on within that > list either, not that it bothers me at all. I wonder what the BOD is for. It could be clearer. >>Maybe the core team & bod could explain what is being hinted as a new >>spirit of openness and how that is proposed to effect the XFree86 >>development process and strategy? Will it mean forinstance an end to the >>sort of behind-closed-doors discussions that appear to have lead to this >>announcement? > > > You'd be surprised if you saw what is actually discussed on the Core Team > lists. Not much at all, apart from recent events that led up to this email. > I have to say, that a lot of the Core Team is still in the dark on why > Keith decided to divert his attention away from XFree86 in the way that > has transpired. We're as much in the dark as you Keith Whitwell (thought I'd > better add your surname to avoid confusion). It's hard to see that keithp was unhappy about cvs access as he obviously had it himself. Similarly he would have been privy at least to the core team masonic plotting, so that wouldn't have been a big issue for him either. I have to wonder if it was he who originated the idea of a split, or whether he was approached by the evil, frustrated "vested interests" and asked to lead a more responsive fork, that would allow them to expand the pool of committers more easily. From mharris' diary, I wouldn't be suprised - although it doesn't seem like he personally had any knowledge of a coming fork. It's hard to see what other issues there are: cvs access, maybe personality, what else? The broad direction of the project, but what does that mean? [snip] > >>OK - some concrete proposals, with cynicism turned off: >> - Make BOD minutes public > > > That would be good, if I knew there were any minutes, which I don't think > there are. There should be. I believe it's mandatory for minutes to be kept of such meetings. > >> - Open all core team meetings to the public, and if feasible post >> minutes, transcripts or even audio feeds. > > > As for my 'XFree86 5.0 TODO' email, that's what was intentional. I recognize the intention, and appreciate what you're doing. > >> - Extend CVS access to regular contributors. Use scripts or >> whatever to control access to subtrees if you want. > > > This comes up from time to time, and I'm sure will get discussed even more. > I know there have been offers to others for CVS commit access, and some > have refused and some have accepted. The consensus of who gets commit > access has always been - if they show competance at sending patches in, > then after a period of time, no doubt they'll get it. It's the same as > the DRI, but with more of a prolonged period of evaluating that persons > patches. I guess this 'prolonged' period, is the stickling point for most. Who and when were the last 5 or so members of the core team admitted? Or should I say: who & when were the last 5 people granted cvs access? (It's so much less threatening that way). Who decided? To take an example from thin air... mharris has been working on xfree for yonks - years, I'm sure - afaik dilligently & responsibly - when should he expect cvs access? Will it still be useful to him by then? > >> - Consider dropping the BOD and core team ideas in favour of an >> elected committee. Examine recent trends in managing other large projects. > > > As I mentioned above, think of the current Core Team, as a bunch of committers > that review what comes into the various fixes/patches lists. Then extend > the Core Team to specialized areas too in which they were forseen, and as > such were granted CVS access. If the community see these teams as closed > groups, then like you say, we disband these groups, or try and put out > a better explanation of what they mean. Well, there does have to be a finite group of people with commit access. What it must boil down to is who decides who gets it & how easy it is is for a responsible developer to get it. That said, there is a definite perception of these groups as closed and entrenched. BOD elections and a much more open CVS access policy would be two excellent steps in the right direction. I enjoyed reading a few of the debian policy papers -- even though I have nothing to do with debian & dont use it. >>Just generally get down off your high horses and accept that the developers >>out there won't wreck xfree86 if you let them participate & accept them as >>equals... > > > I understand this point, and it comes down to the fact that there still > needs to be some level of control of who gets commit access, just like > any other open source project. It's probably not moving quick enough for > some though. Ah, Alan - you're very tactful, I definitely appreciate your not taking my flamebait as provocation... Anyway - CVS access has to be timely to be useful. There's no point offering it to someone who's given up on XFree & gone on to something else in frustration. >>Of course, if xfree starts accepting more developers, it will make it >>harder for us in the dri tree as we tend to benefit from xfree's >>exclusionary practices -- developers find it easier to get cvs access for >>DRI than XFree86, so we pick up some talented developers that get fed up of >>waiting for patches to be applied to xfree cvs. But then again, what is >>the dri tree but a friendly fork to workaround for xfree's closed >>development methodology? If xfree really opened itself up, the first thing >>they'd do is extend an invitation to merge with the dri project, right? >>Maybe that's the acid test, or maybe it's whether we'd accept... > > > Then shut up, if you don't want your DRI developers nicked :0) Only kidding. From my selfish point of view, an XFree fork will put the DRI tree in a bit of a difficult position - especially if the new fork gets significant distro support and we have to somehow track both trees or go through yet another merge step to get our code out to the world. Keith From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:26:38 2003 Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGQbVr021998 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:26:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w2sF-000554-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:26:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E79EC73.000016.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:29:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_F532TSM1VA4000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <200303201553.32816.nolden@kde.org> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] Keith Packard issue X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05, WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_F532TSM1VA4000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_F532O2Q1VA4000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_F532O2Q1VA4000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 09:55:08 AM=0D To: forum@XFree86.Org; Alan Cox=0D Subject: Re: [forum] Keith Packard issue=0D =0D -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----=0D Hash: SHA1=0D =0D On Thursday 20 March 2003 15:01, Alan Cox wrote:=0D > > FYI: the Keith Packard issue is now on Slashdot.org.=0D >=0D > The "Keith Packard" issue or the XFree86 issue ?=0D =0D Correct. The post which is going on all news sites now is IMHO one of the most =0D insulting posts that I ever read. Everyone who knows Keithp in person kno= ws =0D that we're discussing a thing here that is bugging literally everyone: =0D developers from desktop projects like KDE and GNOME, distributors and UNI= X =0D derivates such as the BSD's and in the end, users and support companies w= ho =0D have to live with the stuff they get from XFree86.=0D =0D What do you mean "get from XFree86"? Don't you mean what people 'give to XFree86".=0D If they want something in why don't they send the patch in?=0D =0D If instead you mean for XFree86 developers to develop another's idea th= at was posted or discussed on one of the XFree86 mailing lists, well then yo= u get it to the thorny issue of 'interest'. If you can't do it then you ha= ve to 'interest' someone who can, right? Good case for learning how =0D to do itself if you ask me.=0D =0D Georgina=0D =0D Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing something else.=0D James Barrie, author of Peter Pan. --------------Boundary-00=_F532O2Q1VA4000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 09:55:08 AM
Subject: Re: [foru= m] Keith Packard issue
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday = 20 March 2003 15:01, Alan Cox wrote:
> > FYI: the Keith Packard = issue is now on Slashdot.org.
>
> The "Keith Packard" issue o= r the XFree86 issue ?

Correct. The post which is going on all news= sites now is IMHO one of the most
insulting posts that I ever read. = Everyone who knows Keithp in person knows
that we're discussing a thi= ng here that is bugging literally everyone:
developers from desktop p= rojects like KDE and GNOME, distributors and UNIX
derivates such as t= he BSD's and in the end, users and support companies who
have to live= with the stuff they get from XFree86.
 
What do you mean "get from XFree86"?  Don't you mean what peopl= e 'give to XFree86".
If they want something in why don't they send the patch in?
 
 If instead you mean for XFree86 developers to develop ano= ther's  idea that was posted or discussed on one of the XFree86= mailing lists, well then you get it to the thorny issue of 'interes= t'.  If you can't do it then you have to 'interest' someone who can,= right?  Good case for learning how
to do itself if you ask me.
 
Georgina
 

Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing something else= =2E

James Barrie, author of Peter Pan.

 
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_F532O2Q1VA4000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_F532TSM1VA4000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_F532TSM1VA4000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:33:25 2003 Received: from THE-TECH.MIT.EDU (THE-TECH.MIT.EDU [18.187.1.155]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGXOVr091821 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:33:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU) Received: (from indy@localhost) by THE-TECH.MIT.EDU (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h2KGTfi22532 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:29:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:29:41 -0500 From: indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? Message-ID: <20030320112941.B21445@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> References: <000101c2eeed$d73352c0$1500a8c0@omnibook> <20030320144941.GI867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rS8CxjVDS/+yyDmU" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20030320144941.GI867@fairlite.demon.co.uk>; from alanh@fairlite.demon.co.uk on Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 02:49:41PM +0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-12.7 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,NO_REAL_NAME,PGP_SIGNATURE_2,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --rS8CxjVDS/+yyDmU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies in advance, I'm relatively new to the Linux world and the last time I used X heavily was a long time ago on DecStations. Thus I'm not going to give you a long technical post today, although becoming more involved in the guts of the system may be an option in the future. For now, I thought I'd put out a few things to think about, from the useland point of view: 1) Many Linux distros (and even more users) are running a less than current version of Xfree. If more developers are being looked at, tasking some of t= hem to look after whatever version is the commonly installed version (when it i= s=20 not the latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for users and the perception of Xfree itself. 2) Not to be offensive about it, but the closed (and rather aloof) nature of the Xfree dev process is a direct result of the lack of competition. Linux kernel is wide open and faster moving because if it wasn't, *BSD might well leave it looking foolish. Philosophically, some might wish a plague of competition on your house to force you to be more open, but I am here commenting in the hope that this can happen in a less Darwinian=20 manner. 3) A short list of things Xfree needs. Keep in mind tha I run Debian stable mostly, so you might have fixed some of these already, don't attack me for that, muse instead on point 1. With due acknowledgement to David Bellot (some points are his,=20 I merely reiterate): - Open (more transparent) development is probably beneficial, just for philosophical reasons and let's face it, if everyone already knows the good things you are doing, you won't have to listen to mails like this = :) - How can you make life better for Video Card manufacturers? Installation is always a big issue for software users of all kinds. Making it easier for people to create drivers for different hardware should always be a priority. Xfree builds on the capabilities video hardware provides, helping them help you is only good sense. (Part of this with commercial companies will certainly be finding ways to accelerate driver provision i.e. new drivers appear as new cards come onto the market). - (To Reiterate Ruth Ivimey-Cook) Hot plugging of mouse in particular is something which everyone notices. - (To Reiterate Alex Deutcher + others) A more dynamic X server. The abili= ty=20 to change configs on the fly. - Simplyfying and improving font support. Making fonts look better makes Xfree as a project look better and makes users happy. New releases have improved the look of things, but we're not there yet. This is an issue of importance beyond Xfree. Making text more readable on a monitor is probably one of the most important things left in integrating computers further into human society. A really special target, when you think about it.=20 - Fonts also desparately need to be simple to install.=20 One part of having a graphic desktop is to do things=20 with graphics, including graphics of words. Pro designers won't touch Xfree based systems until font support is easy, neither will Grandma who wants to make Christmas cards. Easy font support probably involves talking to commercial font houses to make it easier for them to produce (and sell ;( ) fonts for Xfree based systems. - Translucency is a big complaint amongst users, so it probably can't be ignored, but don't let important things like memory handling and usage or general speed be forgotten. In the end, when X is criticised (other than on slashdot) these are seen as more important than alpha blending, however less glamorous they are. thanks for reading, Indy. --=20 Indranath Neogy --rS8CxjVDS/+yyDmU Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+eexzpZ2BmyB+SAkRAneiAKDNVNOm54d1cpx4OoNFmmMuuR+0HQCfW6W4 qjbx4xLqLZT0t2x9l0DxNcY= =/rop -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rS8CxjVDS/+yyDmU-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:37:05 2003 Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGb4Vr031633 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:37:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w32M-0006eH-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:37:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E79EEE6.000022.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:40:06 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_UM325BZ2QL8000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <20030320144821.GH867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.7 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_UM325BZ2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_UM320L32QL8000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_UM320L32QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:10:15 AM=0D To: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Cc: dri-devel=0D Subject: Re: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X=0D =0D On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:37:34 +0000, Keith Whitwell wrote:=0D > XFree86 BOD wrote:=0D > =0D > >It has been brought to the attention of the XFree86 Core Team that one= =0D > >of its members, Keith Packard, has been actively (but privately) seeki= ng=0D > >out support for a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is=0D > >also in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested=0D > >interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and the=0D > >future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclose these concer= ns=0D > >within the context of the XFree86 Core Team, which makes his membershi= p=0D > >of that team unviable. As a consequence, Keith Packard is no longer a=0D > >member of the XFree86 Core Team.=0D > =0D > What specifically does the XFree86 bod see as being wrong with the idea= of =0D > a 'by-invitation-only group' managing X server development? Isn't that = =0D > exactly what the core team & xfree86 BOD have been doing all along?=0D =0D Not exactly. Long ago, that was probably right, but these days you=0D could probably see the Core Team as a bunch of committers to the CVS,=0D obviously with their own areas of technical knowledge as well.=0D And yes, we've met on occasion, but more in the reality of a coding=0D frenzy to work on what we wanted to work on. More recently to talk about=0D XFree86 5.0, of which I've sent what I wrote down to this list already.=0D =0D =0D That's good to hear that Five-Oh is going public. I think allot of discussion=0D needs to be done there. Some of the technical ideas on this list I think would =0D be good input into the Five-Oh design.=0D =0D Georgina --------------Boundary-00=_UM320L32QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 10:10:15 AM
Subject: Re: [foru= m] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X
 
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:37:34 +0000, Keith Whitwell wrote:
>= ; XFree86 BOD wrote:
>
> >It has been brought to the atte= ntion of the XFree86 Core Team that one
> >of its members, Keith= Packard, has been actively (but privately) seeking
> >out suppo= rt for a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is
> >= also in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested
&g= t; >interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and t= he
> >future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclose = these concerns
> >within the context of the XFree86 Core Team, w= hich makes his membership
> >of that team unviable. As a consequ= ence, Keith Packard is no longer a
> >member of the XFree86 Core= Team.
>
> What specifically does the XFree86 bod see as bei= ng wrong with the idea of
> a 'by-invitation-only group' managing = X server development? Isn't that
> exactly what the core team &= ; xfree86 BOD have been doing all along?

Not exactly. Long ago, th= at was probably right, but these days you
could probably see the Core = Team as a bunch of committers to the CVS,
obviously with their own are= as of technical knowledge as well.
And yes, we've met on occasion, but= more in the reality of a coding
frenzy to work on what we wanted to w= ork on. More recently to talk about
XFree86 5.0, of which I've sent wh= at I wrote down to this list already.
 
 
That's good to hear that Five-Oh is going public.  I think allo= t of discussion
needs to be done there.  Some of the technical ideas on this li= st I think would
be good input into the Five-Oh design.
 
Georgina
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_UM320L32QL8000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_UM325BZ2QL8000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <82499A93-53F1-4859-9103-BD3E89D24F48> R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_UM325BZ2QL8000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:37:57 2003 Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGbuVr040662 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:37:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alan.coopersmith@sun.com) Received: from phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.21.20]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22907 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:37:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com (vpn-129-150-17-125.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.17.125]) by phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id h2KGbt013582 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:37:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E79EE6C.6040607@sun.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:38:04 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020921 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] thoughts References: <20030320154518.GG9122@openbsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.0 required=6.0 tests=REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Todd T. Fries wrote: > Future direction I personally would like to see: > - support for IPv6 > (are there _any_ plans to support IPv6 in X?). Yes. For Solaris 9, we added IPv6 support to Xsun. As we did this we found a few areas the X protocols needed to be updated to support this, and we've been working with X.org to get the standards revised to include this. We've produced a set of patches that add this support to X11R6.6 & XFree86 4.3.0 that we are preparing to release as part of the public review of the standards changes in the near future. (I'm currently doing some final testing of the 4.3.0 patches on Linux & interoperability testing between them & what we already released in Solaris 9.) -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Sun Software Group Quality, Integration, & Customer Success (QICS) Platform Globalization Engin. - X11 Engineering From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:38:48 2003 Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGcmVr050172 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:38:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w343-0001ea-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:38:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E79EF4F.000025.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:41:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_RP32Q7B2QL8000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <20030320144821.GH867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.5 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,HTML_50_70,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05, WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_RP32Q7B2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_RP32LHG2QL8000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_RP32LHG2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D Then shut up, if you don't want your DRI developers nicked :0) Only kiddi= ng.=0D =0D Alan.=0D =0D =0D Pardon me , but what is "nicked"? =0D =0D G --------------Boundary-00=_RP32LHG2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
Then shut up, if you don't want your DRI developers nicked :0) Only = kidding.

Alan.
 
Pardon me , but what is "nicked"? 
 
G
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_RP32LHG2QL8000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_RP32Q7B2QL8000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_RP32Q7B2QL8000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:49:21 2003 Received: from Cantor.suse.de (ns.suse.de [213.95.15.193]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGnKVr023401 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:49:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eich@suse.de) Received: from Hermes.suse.de (Hermes.suse.de [213.95.15.136]) by Cantor.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA0F14B1F for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:49:19 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15993.62609.93912.53977@xf11.fra.suse.de> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:04:17 +0100 From: Egbert Eich To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO In-Reply-To: Ruth.Ivimey-Cook@ivimey.org wrote on Thursday, 20 March 2003 at 15:16:02 +0000 References: <5.2.0.9.0.20030320145403.00baf910@mailhost.ivimey.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=6.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Ruth Ivimey-Cook writes: > >3. Xlib locale removal. By removing all the Xlc code from libX11 and see > >if we can layer it on top of iconv. Need to discuss the advantages and > >disadvantages of such a task. > > The main benefit being unicode support? Otherwise, what? A leaner Xlib, no duplication of code, less code to worry about we have not much experise for and others can handle better anyway. > >6. PseudoColor emulation. Egbert Eich has written some preliminary code > >for this, and we're hoping he'll be able to release it soon. > > Is there a known hold-up to this work? Presumably it just extends the Yes. My other duties have kept me from committing the code. I just haven't gotten around to do so. > number of visuals available to truecolor hardware? Yes. It gives you PseudoColor for all visuals. > > >8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with > >independent graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. > > What is holding this up? It seems as if it ought to be a no-brainer? No, there are issues with the resource management that prevents this. It would be possible for a certain set of cards when you break the resource manager thru the back door but this is not a clean an general solution. We want it to work with any set of cards you can use nowdays for multihead. Egbert. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:49:43 2003 Received: from mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (smtp5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGngVr023421 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:49:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6335A4000B2 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:49:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w3EO-0001RK-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:49:28 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:49:28 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320164928.GA5528@iliana> References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> <20030320123628.GE867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320125351.GA2534@iliana> <20030320131241.GG867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320142124.GA3651@iliana> <20030320150403.GJ867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030320150403.GJ867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 03:04:03PM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > I'm not quite sure I completely understand what your splitting out above, > but if you can base what your thinking on the DESIGN document in > xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/doc/DESIGN and expand to the level of > detail that exists in this document I could make more comments. Here goes a first draft, i hope that is what you have in mind. ... 5.8 Video Driver Probe Here we restrict ourself to doing an hardware probe, like is said in the DESIGN document. There will be only one device section corresponding to the chip and it will be shared by default. xf86MatchDevice use the device section, right, not the screen one ? The current DESIGN document also allocates a screeninforec for each device, and partially fills it. This is needed so we know which PreInit to call. I am not sure about how this work, but i guess that we examine the Screen section of the config file here. We can still do this, but each screen which represents a viewport into a common framebuffer would use the same device id, so there is no more need of the Screen option in the device section. Claim the entities. ... 5.11 Sort the Screens and dpre-check the Monitor information Not sure about this, but i suppose it is just consistency check of the monitor modes, we can't do DDC things and such here. 5.12.a Entity Init We call this one for each entity in the chip, and do the stuff that is common to all heads of this entity, like video memory and other such stuff. We load modules that are needed, and in general handle all the information regarding the framebuffer (depth, bpp, virtualX/Y, dispalyWidth, videoRam, FBBase, MMIOBase and other such). We parse the entity-related options (the one of the device section). We also allocate a pEnt and store all the above information in it, and not in the screeninforec or driverprivate info. we put a pointer to the pEnt in the corresponding structures though. We can also call a HW accesing fb-init function, or do the necessary stuff directly to prepare the framebuffer information of the chip, like the framebuffer base address and stride. 5.12.b Head Init We call this one for each head (of each entity) and use it to allocate things related to each head. We initialize the clocks, the ramdacs, we query the supported modes trough DDC if possible, trought the builtin or configuration file provided data. Here we parse the screen (and monitor) related options and set variables such as frameX/Y0/1, modePool, modes, currentMode, ... ... 5.16 Screen Init Mostly as we do now, except maybe that we use, in addition to the currentMode, also information found in the currentSource or something such to be able to set do zooming if we can. ... 5.19 Mode switching 5.20 Changing Viewport I am not entirely sure of these two, and what would be the expected behavior with regard to the separate source/mode of the viewport. Adjustframe could be made to change not only the position of the viewport, but also its source size, while mode switching would be made to handle the outgoing video mode (to the monitor), but like Dawes said, this is rather counter intuitive to what is done now (where we only have modes), and may cause breakage in things like DGA apps and such. 5.21 VT switching This is a difficult one, since it would depend if we do multi-seat on the same entity or not. In the case we don't do same-entity multi-seat, it goes like this : on ENTER : ChipEntityEnter is called for each entity, and saves entity related information. ChipHeadEnter is called for each head (of each entity) and saves head specific information, which is proabably restricted to viewport information and outgoing video modes. on LEAVE : The same, but the other way around. Now, if we support same-entity multi-seat, thing become more problematic, since one seat could stay within X, while the other switches away or something such. I don't know if this is practical or can be solved without cooperation with the kernel console driver, or even if the chips support this (imagine one head being in text mode and driven by the kernel console code using the vga registers and the other continuing to be used by the X driver. ... Other issues : Both the Xv overlay and the hardware cursor are handled per head, since they are related to the viewport and outgoing mode. They take as source a separate part of the onboard memory anyway. XAA and DRI needs to be shared per both heads, i suppose we can already do this, but there are further problems, like the Radeon limit on 2K coordinates for the graphic core (2D and 3D ? i don't really know, i don't have the docs). We need to call a rendering window adjustment function that modifies the framebuffer base per head or something such to work around this. This is what is done for the xinerama+DRI on dualhead experiment Jonathan Thambidurai did on Jens Owen advice. What else, there are assuredly some other issues i did miss, like said, i am mostly familiar by the device specific driver stuff and not much else, but i think this is already a start and that we can do some discution based on this. Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:56:32 2003 Received: from mwinf0204.wanadoo.fr (smtp5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGuSVr023738 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:56:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0204.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76873A00042B for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:56:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w3L3-0001Sa-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:56:21 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 17:56:20 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] thoughts Message-ID: <20030320165620.GB5528@iliana> References: <20030320154518.GG9122@openbsd.org> <3E79EE6C.6040607@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E79EE6C.6040607@sun.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 08:38:04AM -0800, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Todd T. Fries wrote: > >Future direction I personally would like to see: > >- support for IPv6 > >(are there _any_ plans to support IPv6 in X?). > > Yes. For Solaris 9, we added IPv6 support to Xsun. As we did this we > found a few areas the X protocols needed to be updated to support this, > and we've been working with X.org to get the standards revised to include > this. We've produced a set of patches that add this support to X11R6.6 > & XFree86 4.3.0 that we are preparing to release as part of the public > review of the standards changes in the near future. (I'm currently doing > some final testing of the 4.3.0 patches on Linux & interoperability testing > between them & what we already released in Solaris 9.) There was also mail about IPv6 patches on the debian-x mailing list. I did not follow it though. Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 08:56:59 2003 Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (fairlite.demon.co.uk [158.152.52.252]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KGuuVr023768 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 08:56:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alanh@fairlite.demon.co.uk) Received: from fairlite.demon.co.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2KGt1I0009635; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:55:02 GMT Received: (from alanh@localhost) by fairlite.demon.co.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id h2KGt00W009633; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:55:00 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:55:00 +0000 From: Alan Hourihane To: Keith Whitwell Cc: forum@XFree86.Org, dri-devel Subject: Re: [Dri-devel] Re: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X Message-ID: <20030320165500.GK867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> References: <20030320001031.B7189@xfree86.org> <3E79A7FE.4070100@yahoo.com> <20030320144821.GH867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <3E79E766.1020503@tungstengraphics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E79E766.1020503@tungstengraphics.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 04:08:06 +0000, Keith Whitwell wrote: > Alan Hourihane wrote: > >On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:37:34 +0000, Keith Whitwell wrote: > > > >>XFree86 BOD wrote: > >> > >> > >>>It has been brought to the attention of the XFree86 Core Team that one > >>>of its members, Keith Packard, has been actively (but privately) seeking > >>>out support for a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is > >>>also in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested > >>>interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and the > >>>future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclose these concerns > >>>within the context of the XFree86 Core Team, which makes his membership > >>>of that team unviable. As a consequence, Keith Packard is no longer a > >>>member of the XFree86 Core Team. > >> > >>What specifically does the XFree86 bod see as being wrong with the idea > >>of a 'by-invitation-only group' managing X server development? Isn't > >>that exactly what the core team & xfree86 BOD have been doing all along? > > > > > >Not exactly. Long ago, that was probably right, but these days you > >could probably see the Core Team as a bunch of committers to the CVS, > >obviously with their own areas of technical knowledge as well. > >And yes, we've met on occasion, but more in the reality of a coding > >frenzy to work on what we wanted to work on. > > It's a spin thing. "Core team" sounds exclusionary, where as "Developers > who have been granted CVS access" sounds pretty inclusive... and even more > inclusive if there is regular induction of developers into that group. Right, it's definately a 'spin thing'. > >More recently to talk about > >XFree86 5.0, of which I've sent what I wrote down to this list already. > > Doesn't this contradict your assertion that you're just a bunch of > committers? Yes, I appreciate your post today, but would it (or the > openness post) have happened if keithp was still a happy core teamer? Not really. We met in New York, as it was convienient for all. We had decided to talk about what to do for 5.0 but only to get the ball rolling. It doesn't mean that excludes others. In a project such as this, it's sometimes easier to get some preliminary information about what others are thinking to do to spark ideas with the rest of the community. Keith Packard was at that meeting to discuss his ideas from the people he'd been talking to. So it was more of a bringing together of what the individuals on the Core Team had heard about what is needed by the X world. And I'd of still posted the document - but probably to devel@ rather than the new forum@ list. > >As for the BOD list, the Core Team doesn't know what goes on within that > >list either, not that it bothers me at all. > > I wonder what the BOD is for. It could be clearer. Money matters, incorporating the 'free' company in the US etc. More managerial stuff is what it means to me. > >>Maybe the core team & bod could explain what is being hinted as a new > >>spirit of openness and how that is proposed to effect the XFree86 > >>development process and strategy? Will it mean forinstance an end to the > >>sort of behind-closed-doors discussions that appear to have lead to this > >>announcement? > > > > > >You'd be surprised if you saw what is actually discussed on the Core Team > >lists. Not much at all, apart from recent events that led up to this email. > >I have to say, that a lot of the Core Team is still in the dark on why > >Keith decided to divert his attention away from XFree86 in the way that > >has transpired. We're as much in the dark as you Keith Whitwell (thought > >I'd > >better add your surname to avoid confusion). > > It's hard to see that keithp was unhappy about cvs access as he obviously > had it himself. Similarly he would have been privy at least to the core > team masonic plotting, so that wouldn't have been a big issue for him > either. > > I have to wonder if it was he who originated the idea of a split, or > whether he was approached by the evil, frustrated "vested interests" and > asked to lead a more responsive fork, that would allow them to expand the > pool of committers more easily. From mharris' diary, I wouldn't be > suprised - although it doesn't seem like he personally had any knowledge of > a coming fork. > > It's hard to see what other issues there are: cvs access, maybe > personality, what else? The broad direction of the project, but what does > that mean? I'd welcome comments from Keith Packard here. I'm sure we'd love to get back on track and avoid a split as much as possible. > >>OK - some concrete proposals, with cynicism turned off: > >> - Make BOD minutes public > > > > > >That would be good, if I knew there were any minutes, which I don't think > >there are. > > There should be. I believe it's mandatory for minutes to be kept of such > meetings. I'll leave the BOD to answer this one. > >> - Open all core team meetings to the public, and if feasible post > >> minutes, transcripts or even audio feeds. > > > > > >As for my 'XFree86 5.0 TODO' email, that's what was intentional. > > I recognize the intention, and appreciate what you're doing. O.k. > >> - Extend CVS access to regular contributors. Use scripts or > >> whatever to control access to subtrees if you want. > > > > > >This comes up from time to time, and I'm sure will get discussed even more. > >I know there have been offers to others for CVS commit access, and some > >have refused and some have accepted. The consensus of who gets commit > >access has always been - if they show competance at sending patches in, > >then after a period of time, no doubt they'll get it. It's the same as > >the DRI, but with more of a prolonged period of evaluating that persons > >patches. I guess this 'prolonged' period, is the stickling point for most. > > Who and when were the last 5 or so members of the core team admitted? Or > should I say: who & when were the last 5 people granted cvs access? (It's > so much less threatening that way). Who decided? I believe David has sent emails recently to a few. David may be able to comment more on their acceptance or rejection. I will say though, that there are certain areas of X that go completely untouched, like XInput. I'm sure if someone showed prowess in this field, they'd definately get commit access. > To take an example from thin air... mharris has been working on xfree for > yonks - years, I'm sure - afaik dilligently & responsibly - when should he > expect cvs access? Will it still be useful to him by then? Wow, this is a sore point, I'll try to be diplomatic, but Mike - I'm not trying to upset you, it's just the way I currently see it. Here goes.... I know Mike would love to have CVS access, but his reviewing of patches in the past have been somewhat questionable as to their fitting for the purpose as to be the 'correct' way to fix the problem. It's a two way street. If Mike spends more time reviewing the patch that he sends in, rather than blind copying from the devel@ lists then he may be seen as taking a more investigative approach into fixing issues and given CVS access. Yes, I understand we all make mistakes, but a more detailed review would be nice. And Mike, yes, some of your patches are o.k. too, but the percentage could be higher. > >> - Consider dropping the BOD and core team ideas in favour of an > >> elected committee. Examine recent trends in managing other large > >> projects. > > > > > >As I mentioned above, think of the current Core Team, as a bunch of > >committers > >that review what comes into the various fixes/patches lists. Then extend > >the Core Team to specialized areas too in which they were forseen, and as > >such were granted CVS access. If the community see these teams as closed > >groups, then like you say, we disband these groups, or try and put out > >a better explanation of what they mean. > > Well, there does have to be a finite group of people with commit access. > What it must boil down to is who decides who gets it & how easy it is is > for a responsible developer to get it. Right. That process probably needs to be made more clear. > That said, there is a definite perception of these groups as closed and > entrenched. Then we need to dissolve that perception then. > BOD elections and a much more open CVS access policy would be two excellent > steps in the right direction. I enjoyed reading a few of the debian policy > papers -- even though I have nothing to do with debian & dont use it. > > >>Just generally get down off your high horses and accept that the > >>developers out there won't wreck xfree86 if you let them participate & > >>accept them as equals... > > > > > >I understand this point, and it comes down to the fact that there still > >needs to be some level of control of who gets commit access, just like > >any other open source project. It's probably not moving quick enough for > >some though. > > Ah, Alan - you're very tactful, I definitely appreciate your not taking my > flamebait as provocation... Never. > Anyway - CVS access has to be timely to be useful. There's no point > offering it to someone who's given up on XFree & gone on to something else > in frustration. Right, and we're back to the Core Team. The people currently on it, have been around for quite a few years and have stuck like glue to the project. That's invaluable. > >>Of course, if xfree starts accepting more developers, it will make it > >>harder for us in the dri tree as we tend to benefit from xfree's > >>exclusionary practices -- developers find it easier to get cvs access for > >>DRI than XFree86, so we pick up some talented developers that get fed up > >>of waiting for patches to be applied to xfree cvs. But then again, what > >>is the dri tree but a friendly fork to workaround for xfree's closed > >>development methodology? If xfree really opened itself up, the first > >>thing they'd do is extend an invitation to merge with the dri project, > >>right? Maybe that's the acid test, or maybe it's whether we'd accept... > > > > > >Then shut up, if you don't want your DRI developers nicked :0) Only > >kidding. > > From my selfish point of view, an XFree fork will put the DRI tree in a bit > of a difficult position - especially if the new fork gets significant > distro support and we have to somehow track both trees or go through yet > another merge step to get our code out to the world. Indeed. Alan. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:11:25 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHBOVr029409 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:11:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hp@redhat.com) Received: (from hp@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KHBO308031 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:11:24 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:11:24 -0500 From: Havoc Pennington To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... Message-ID: <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-9.9 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 02:41:53PM +0100, Martijn Sipkema wrote: > > Will XFree86 5.0 use Xft for font rendering or might > it (also) use Sun's STSF (http://stsf.sf.net)? > Xft is the standard. STSF is a bad design, and none of the toolkits that matter are interested in supporting it. Havoc From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:15:35 2003 Received: from postoffice.prismnet.com (postoffice.prismnet.com [209.198.128.18]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHFZVr032354 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:15:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frankl@classic-guitar.com) Received: from frank (cs24243193-214.austin.rr.com [24.243.193.214]) by postoffice.prismnet.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHFYBB046154 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:15:35 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from frankl@classic-guitar.com) From: "Frank LaMonica" To: Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:07:17 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.5 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_OUTLOOK version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: David Dawes has asked that anyone with an interest in X or XFree86 contribute to this discussion, so I am taking this opportunity to air a suggestion that I hope the current BOD and slate of XFree86 officers will seriously consider. I am the CEO of Tungsten Graphics, a development organization that has a strong vested interest in the success of X and XFree86, so it is very important to TG that XFree86 remain a viable organization. Most of the comments on this list have been directed to specific complaints or technical issues that, however important, are not the root cause of this problem. We are seeing Keith Packard, a loyal and dedicated XFree86 contributor, publicly express his frustration with an organization in which he has more personal control than the vast majority of other people whose livelihood depends on XFree86's continued success. David Dawes has turned to that constituency to assist him in resolving this situation. Both of these actions imply there is an organizational problem within XFree86 itself. The best organizational model I know of that adequately addresses both the need to have managers who are the most knowledgeable and willing to work, and the need to have a mechanism for all interested parties to voice their concerns, is a representative democracy. XFree86 has historically resisted that model. The increasing ubiquity of XFree86 has widened the discrepancy between the desires of its constituency and those of its managing cadre. Under those circumstances, a fork was inevitable. There is currently no way for dissenting voices to have an opportunity to fairly affect the direction of XFree86, no matter what percentage of interested parties agree. The ONLY thing XFree86 needs to do to correct this problem is to establish a mechanism where any interested person may join XFree86 and be given an equal vote to elect a slate of candidates for a governing board of directors whose tenure is fixed to some reasonable duration. That BOD will then elect officers and establish strategic policy. If the BOD fails to measure up to the standards expected by the majority of members, they will be replaced by people who will comply with the majority view. Forking would not be a viable option because the majority of interested people would then have the power to redirect the organization in a way that suites them. Attempts to fork the project will fail because the majority of users and interested parties will not support a fork, but, even more importantly, the organization will assure its longevity because it will have the ability to change as required by the current needs of the industry. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:16:42 2003 Received: from web11308.mail.yahoo.com (web11308.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.211]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KHGgVr057608 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:16:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from agd5f@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030320171642.55038.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.135.61.199] by web11308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:16:42 PST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:16:42 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Deucher Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: one more thing, I know X primarily deals with video, but some integrations with MAS might be nice for network transparent sound. Plus, if Xfree86 were to integrate it it might be more easily picked up by distros and other UNIXs so we would have a common audio interface. Alex --- Alex Deucher wrote: > Some other suggestions: > > - integrating Gatos code > > - perhaps provideing better multimedia interfaces, maybe some thing > that integrates Xv, XvMC, etc. Providing YUV surfaces using both the > overlay engine and OpenGL textures. > > - as Sven mentioned better Dualhead support; Support for Dualhead DRI > for both multi-card and single card multi-head scenarios. being able > to dymanically switch the video overlay hardware to the head a video > is > being played on instead of binding it to a single head for hardware > that supports it. > > - a more dynamic X server. The ability to change configs, change > dualhead layouts, tv out, etc. on the fly. User definable hot > buttons > to change configs, outputs etc. > > - improved power mangement support (maybe start with Michel/Charl's > radeon suspend patch) > > - integrating DMX > > - Release more often! smaller releases, or releasing updates to just > certain modules, etc. > > > > Alex > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Well, > > As this forum is for discussing all X stuff, here goes with a few > notes > from an XFree86 Core Team meeting from a little while back. So in the > spirit of openness I thought I should discuss it here. > > This is stuff that we can think of that needs doing for XFree86 5.0, > but > by no means is it limited to this list or even guarantee'ing anything > on the list will make it for 5.0. > > So, to spark discussions, here it is.... > > 1. Redesign of XAA, so that multiple depth pixmaps can be stored in > offscreen > memory and the creation of a new directive - called the XAASurface. > There > will undoubtably be driver work involved to port to the new > interface. > The > techinical lead on this is Mark Vojkovich. I believe Mark has a > substantial > portion of this done, if not all. > > 2. FBManager extensions. This still needs furthur thought to > encompass > the requirements of all bases, but, the DRI is one that needs much > more > flexible memory management of the framebuffer. Secondly, it's been > requested before for linear allocation, rather than the current area > allocation code for some Xv implementations. > > 3. Xlib locale removal. By removing all the Xlc code from libX11 and > see > if we can layer it on top of iconv. Need to discuss the advantages > and > disadvantages of such a task. > > 4. DGA - do we leave in, or do we shelve it ? > > 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching yet. > This > still needs to be done. > > 6. PseudoColor emulation. Egbert Eich has written some preliminary > code > for this, and we're hoping he'll be able to release it soon. > > 7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is > obviously > tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do you > correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. > > 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with > independent > graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. > > 9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension > replacing > Xlib drawing routines. > > 10. Window translucency. > > 11. XFixes extension. > > 12. Gamma corrected RENDER > > 13. Potential DIX/DDX changes. > > Any other topics, please bring up for discussion. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Forum mailing list > Forum@XFree86.Org > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:22:59 2003 Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHMwVr089431 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:22:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alan.coopersmith@sun.com) Received: from phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.21.20]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04371 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:22:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com (vpn-129-150-17-125.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.17.125]) by phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id h2KHMv024855 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:22:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E79F8FB.20605@sun.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:23:07 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020921 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... References: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-9.2 required=6.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 02:41:53PM +0100, Martijn Sipkema wrote: > >>Will XFree86 5.0 use Xft for font rendering or might >>it (also) use Sun's STSF (http://stsf.sf.net)? > > Xft is the standard. STSF is a bad design, and none of the toolkits > that matter are interested in supporting it. I'll admit we've found some problems with STSF that we've corrected in our current development (yes, the web site is out of date, we're working on an update), but we've found the core design works well for us. What about it do you find to be bad? -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Sun Software Group Quality, Integration, & Customer Success (QICS) Platform Globalization Engin. - X11 Engineering From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:25:34 2003 Received: from ns2.tudelft.nl (ns2.tudelft.nl [130.161.180.65]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHPXVr013831 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:25:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msipkema@sipkema-digital.com) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.mailhost1.tudelft.nl by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) id <0HC200C015QJM7@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:25:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl (lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl [130.161.166.23]) by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) with ESMTP id <0HC2006NE5QJHM@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:25:31 +0100 (MET) Received: from boromir (boromir.lr-s.tudelft.nl [145.94.77.58]) by lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2656.59) id FR8LAMV2; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:25:33 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:25:24 +0100 From: Martijn Sipkema Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... To: forum@XFree86.Org Message-id: <004001c2ef05$b11fc740$161b14ac@boromir> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.2 required=6.0 tests=INVALID_MSGID,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_OE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: Martijn Sipkema List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > > Will XFree86 5.0 use Xft for font rendering or might > > it (also) use Sun's STSF (http://stsf.sf.net)? > > > > Xft is the standard. Neither are the standard. > STSF is a bad design, What are the problems with its design? I'd like to know what the pros and cons are of both Xft and STSF. > and none of the toolkits > that matter are interested in supporting it. Maybe.. but do they have technical reasons for not doing so? And if so, where can I find these? --ms From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:32:56 2003 Received: from mwinf0603.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHWtVr007225 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:32:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0603.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B6D2400974 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:32:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w3u7-0001ad-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:32:35 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:32:35 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 Message-ID: <20030320173235.GA5898@iliana> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-9.9 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:07:17AM -0800, Frank LaMonica wrote: > The ONLY thing XFree86 needs to do to correct this problem is to establish a > mechanism where any interested person may join XFree86 and be given an equal > vote to elect a slate of candidates for a governing board of directors whose Anyone interested may freely join XFree86 and be given an equal vote ? Even if he never wrote a line of XFree86 code or just joined because it is cool to be X developper ? Or do you have another way of mesuring interest in future members or something ? Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:39:26 2003 Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHdQVr074109 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:39:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w40i-0000M4-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:39:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E79FD85.000028.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:42:29 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_TI62B2O2QL8000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05, WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_TI62B2O2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_TI626DS2QL8000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_TI626DS2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:33:57 AM=0D To: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Subject: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO=0D =0D Some other suggestions:=0D =0D - integrating Gatos code=0D =0D =0D I thought that would be happening based on GATOS being in Bugzilla.=0D I thought, Yippee! About time. Same for DRI and MESA. I hate having =0D to go shopping everywhere to find if what I'm have trouble with is in the latest =0D CVS. Usually I just pull and see....This usually leads to disappointment :-(=0D =0D G --------------Boundary-00=_TI626DS2QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 10:33:57 AM
Subject: [forum] X= Free86 5.0 TODO
 
Some other suggestions:

- integrating Gatos code
 
 
I thought that would be happening based on GATOS being in Bugzilla.<= /DIV>
I thought, Yippee!  About time.  Same for DRI and MESA.&nb= sp; I  hate having
to go shopping everywhere to find if what I'm have trouble with is i= n the latest
CVS.  Usually I just pull and see....This usually leads to= disappointment :-(
 
G
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_TI626DS2QL8000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_TI62B2O2QL8000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <2E9677BF-71B3-4F2A-B221-B6CA5A73FB52> R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_TI62B2O2QL8000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:40:48 2003 Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHemVr074298 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:40:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w422-0002eE-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:40:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E79FDD7.00002B.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:43:51 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_3L62WY02QL8000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <15993.59220.771240.143445@scream.east.isi.edu> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] Xr/Xc and SVG status (was: XFree86 5.0 TODO) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_3L62WY02QL8000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_3L62R942QL8000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_3L62R942QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:29:16 AM=0D To: forum@xfree86.org=0D Subject: [forum] Xr/Xc and SVG status (was: XFree86 5.0 TODO)=0D =0D On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 Ruth Ivimey-Cook wrote:=0D > On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 Alan Hourihane wrote:=0D >=0D >> 9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension =0D >> replacing Xlib drawing routines.=0D >=0D > What status is this?=0D =0D I've been actively developing the Xr/Xc code. There hasn't been a=0D decent forum at xfree86.org for discussing it since the inexplicable=0D termination of the render@xfree86.org list (I truly miss the high SNR=0D of that list).=0D =0D Carl why didn't you just post a technical discussion on devel? That's =0D historically worked for XFree86.=0D =0D G --------------Boundary-00=_3L62R942QL8000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 11:29:16 AM
Subject: [forum] X= r/Xc and SVG status (was: XFree86 5.0 TODO)
 
On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 Ruth Ivimey-Cook wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Mar 2= 003 Alan Hourihane wrote:
>
>> 9. Xc/Xr - A postscript ren= dering library for the RENDER extension
>> replacing Xlib drawi= ng routines.
>
> What status is this?

I've been active= ly developing the Xr/Xc code. There hasn't been a
decent forum at xfre= e86.org for discussing it since the inexplicable
termination of the render@xfree86.org list (I truly = miss the high SNR
of that list).
 
Carl why didn't you just post a technical discussion on devel? = That's
historically worked for XFree86.
 
G
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_3L62R942QL8000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_3L62WY02QL8000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <39495043-2B30-4E96-A93F-22BA357B1A4E> R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_3L62WY02QL8000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:42:24 2003 Received: from Cantor.suse.de (ns.suse.de [213.95.15.193]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHgNVr074352 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:42:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eich@suse.de) Received: from Hermes.suse.de (Hermes.suse.de [213.95.15.136]) by Cantor.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5901414C96 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:42:23 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15994.257.458049.70749@xf11.fra.suse.de> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:57:21 +0100 From: Egbert Eich To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Xr/Xc and SVG status (was: XFree86 5.0 TODO) In-Reply-To: cworth@east.isi.edu wrote on Thursday, 20 March 2003 at 11:07:48 -0500 References: <15993.59220.771240.143445@scream.east.isi.edu> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Carl Worth writes: > On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 Ruth Ivimey-Cook wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 Alan Hourihane wrote: > > > >> 9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension > >> replacing Xlib drawing routines. > > > > What status is this? > > I've been actively developing the Xr/Xc code. There hasn't been a > decent forum at xfree86.org for discussing it since the inexplicable > termination of the render@xfree86.org list (I truly miss the high SNR > of that list). > Yes, these lists have been removed to simplify the structure. We may have to consider to have special purpose lists for these topics. However we will have a new forum for posting and discussing such issues, soon. Egbert. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:46:19 2003 Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHkJVr074566 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:46:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w47K-0004J0-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:46:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E79FF1F.000031.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:49:19 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_7U622QP3LVC000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03, WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_7U622QP3LVC000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_7U62X1T3LVC000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_7U62X1T3LVC000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:20:27 PM=0D To: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Subject: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86=0D =0D David Dawes has asked that anyone with an interest in X or XFree86=0D contribute to this discussion, so I am taking this opportunity to air a=0D suggestion that I hope the current BOD and slate of XFree86 officers will= =0D seriously consider.=0D =0D I am the CEO of Tungsten Graphics, a development organization that has a=0D strong vested interest in the success of X and XFree86, so it is very=0D important to TG that XFree86 remain a viable organization. Most of the=0D comments on this list have been directed to specific complaints or techni= cal=0D issues that, however important, are not the root cause of this problem. W= e=0D are seeing Keith Packard, a loyal and dedicated XFree86 contributor,=0D publicly express his frustration with an organization in which he has mor= e=0D personal control than the vast majority of other people whose livelihood=0D depends on XFree86's continued success. David Dawes has turned to that=0D constituency to assist him in resolving this situation. Both of these=0D actions imply there is an organizational problem within XFree86 itself.=0D =0D =0D Odd comment since TG owns 2 core developers already. What are you lookin= g=0D to take over and maintain XFRee86 like you did DRI? I guess that's why y= ou have your point man Whitwell, gunning for the org. Revolting self-pander= ing if you ask me.=0D =0D Georgina=20 --------------Boundary-00=_7U62X1T3LVC000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 12:20:27 PM
Subject: [forum] S= uggestion for XFree86
 
David Dawes has asked that anyone with an interest in X or XFree86contribute to this discussion, so I am taking this opportunity to air a=
suggestion that I hope the current BOD and slate of XFree86 officers = will
seriously consider.

I am the CEO of Tungsten Graphics, a d= evelopment organization that has a
strong vested interest in the succe= ss of X and XFree86, so it is very
important to TG that XFree86 remain= a viable organization. Most of the
comments on this list have been di= rected to specific complaints or technical
issues that, however import= ant, are not the root cause of this problem. We
are seeing Keith Packa= rd, a loyal and dedicated XFree86 contributor,
publicly express his fr= ustration with an organization in which he has more
personal control t= han the vast majority of other people whose livelihood
depends on XFre= e86's continued success. David Dawes has turned to that
constituency t= o assist him in resolving this situation. Both of these
actions imply = there is an organizational problem within XFree86 itself.
 
 
Odd comment since TG owns 2 core developers already.  What are = you looking
to take over and maintain XFRee86 like you did DRI?  I guess th= at's why you have your point man Whitwell, gunning for the org.  Rev= olting self-pandering if you ask me.
 
Georgina
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_7U62X1T3LVC000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_7U622QP3LVC000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_7U622QP3LVC000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:50:51 2003 Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHopVr074745 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:50:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w4Bk-0004Si-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:50:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E7A0031.000034.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:53:53 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_T172NM13LVC000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05, WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_T172NM13LVC000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_T172IW53LVC000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_T172IW53LVC000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:40:29 PM=0D To: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions...=0D =0D On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 02:41:53PM +0100, Martijn Sipkema wrote:=0D > =0D > Will XFree86 5.0 use Xft for font rendering or might=0D > it (also) use Sun's STSF (http://stsf.sf.net)?=0D > =0D =0D Xft is the standard. STSF is a bad design, and none of the toolkits=0D that matter are interested in supporting it.=0D =0D Havoc=0D =0D =0D What is this another NIH problem? No openness...just use Xft.=0D That's ridiculous Havoc. Closing your mind to alternatives just =0D makes your solution weaker.=0D =0D G --------------Boundary-00=_T172IW53LVC000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 12:40:29 PM
Subject: Re: [foru= m] some XFree86 5.0 questions...
 
On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 02:41:53PM +0100, Martijn Sipkema wrote:
= >
> Will XFree86 5.0 use Xft for font rendering or might
>= ; it (also) use Sun's STSF (http://stsf.sf= =2Enet)?
>

Xft is the standard. STSF is a bad design, a= nd none of the toolkits
that matter are interested in supporting it.
Havoc
 
What is this another NIH problem?  No openness...just use Xft.<= /DIV>
That's ridiculous Havoc.  Closing your mind to alternatives jus= t
makes your solution weaker.
 
G
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_T172IW53LVC000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_T172NM13LVC000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <2EFBE4CF-583D-4A1C-A3B7-CCAA1073DE0A> R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_T172NM13LVC000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:54:33 2003 Received: from Cantor.suse.de (ns.suse.de [213.95.15.193]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHsWVr074919 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:54:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eich@suse.de) Received: from Hermes.suse.de (Hermes.suse.de [213.95.15.136]) by Cantor.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD8F814C7E for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:37:13 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15993.65475.981432.593860@xf11.fra.suse.de> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:52:03 +0100 From: Egbert Eich To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO In-Reply-To: nolden@kde.org wrote on Thursday, 20 March 2003 at 17:08:48 +0100 References: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <200303201708.48146.nolden@kde.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Ralf Nolden writes: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 20 March 2003 16:20, Alex Deucher wrote: > > - a more dynamic X server. The ability to change configs, change > > dualhead layouts, tv out, etc. on the fly. User definable hot buttons > > to change configs, outputs etc. > > The s3switch program may help for S3 cards and serve for an example for cards > that allow switching, there's also a KDE frontend (ks3switch). Would be nice > if that gets integrated with a common interface into X for all cards who > support this. > Yes, I have an extension in mind that whould allow to do exactly this. Each chipset has different capabilities. It would therefore be similar to the Xv video atributes. Egbert. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:53:24 2003 Received: from netline-be1.netline.ch (netline-be1.netline.ch [195.141.226.32]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHrNVr074875 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michel@daenzer.net) Received: from [10.0.1.17] (unverified [80.218.117.18]) by netline-be1.netline.ch (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.6) with ESMTP id for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:53:21 +0100 Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? From: Michel =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=E4nzer?= To: forum@xfree86.org In-Reply-To: <20030320112941.B21445@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> References: <000101c2eeed$d73352c0$1500a8c0@omnibook> <20030320144941.GI867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> <20030320112941.B21445@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: Debian, XFree86 Message-Id: <1048182798.1607.101.camel@thor> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.0 Date: 20 Mar 2003 18:53:19 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.6 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,NOSPAM_INC,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Don, 2003-03-20 at 17:29, indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU wrote: > > 1) Many Linux distros (and even more users) are running a less than current > version of Xfree. If more developers are being looked at, tasking some of them > to look after whatever version is the commonly installed version (when it is > not the latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for users and the > perception of Xfree itself. Good idea, I think we could use frequent bugfix releases, in particular now that a bunch of more or less serious problems seem to have crept into 4.3.0. > - (To Reiterate Ruth Ivimey-Cook) Hot plugging of mouse in particular > is something which everyone notices. The Linux kernel will (in 2.6, and already does partly in 2.4) provide this in a way that is backwards compatible and transparent to userland. > - Simplyfying and improving font support. Making fonts look better makes > Xfree as a project look better and makes users happy. New releases have > improved the look of things, but we're not there yet. This is an issue of > importance beyond Xfree. Making text more readable on a monitor is probably > one of the most important things left in integrating computers further into > human society. A really special target, when you think about it. > > - Fonts also desparately need to be simple to install. > One part of having a graphic desktop is to do things > with graphics, including graphics of words. Pro designers won't touch > Xfree based systems until font support is easy, neither will Grandma > who wants to make Christmas cards. Easy font support probably involves > talking to commercial font houses to make it easier for them to produce > (and sell ;( ) fonts for Xfree based systems. I think Xft and fontconfig address these quite adequately already. > - Translucency is a big complaint amongst users, so it probably can't > be ignored, but don't let important things like memory handling and usage or > general speed be forgotten. Are these really important issues? As an example, a Mac OS X and casual Linux user (as opposed to a Linux and casual Mac OS X user like me :) recently asked me why X was 'slower' than Aqua, when in fact it's quite clearly faster in general, and what bothered him was the difference in smoothness. -- Earthling Michel Dänzer (MrCooper)/ Debian GNU/Linux (powerpc) developer XFree86 and DRI project member / CS student, Free Software enthusiast From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:53:57 2003 Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHrvVr074904 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:53:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w4El-0001yt-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:53:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E7A00EB.00003D.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:56:59 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_Z672E923LVC000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <20030320112941.B21445@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03, WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_Z672E923LVC000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_Z6729K64G6G000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_Z6729K64G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:35:04 AM=0D To: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ?=0D =0D Apologies in advance,=0D I'm relatively new to the Linux world and the last time I used X heavily=0D was a long time ago on DecStations. Thus I'm not going to give you=0D a long technical post today, although becoming more involved in the guts=0D of the system may be an option in the future.=0D =0D For now, I thought I'd put out a few things to think about,=0D from the useland point of view:=0D =0D 1) Many Linux distros (and even more users) are running a less than curre= nt=0D version of Xfree. If more developers are being looked at, tasking some of them=0D to look after whatever version is the commonly installed version (when it= is =0D not the latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for users and the=0D perception of Xfree itself.=0D =0D 2) Not to be offensive about it, but the closed (and rather aloof) nature= =0D of the Xfree dev process is a direct result of the lack of competition.=0D Linux kernel is wide open and faster moving because if it wasn't, *BSD=0D might well leave it looking foolish. Philosophically, some might wish a=0D plague of competition on your house to force you to be more open, but I=0D am here commenting in the hope that this can happen in a less Darwinian =0D manner.=0D =0D 3) A short list of things Xfree needs. Keep in mind tha I run Debian stab= le=0D mostly, so you might have fixed some of these already, don't attack me fo= r=0D that, muse instead on point 1.=0D =0D What happened to Branden Robinson? I thought he ran Debian stable branch= ?=0D =0D Georgina=20 --------------Boundary-00=_Z6729K64G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 11:35:04 AM
Subject: Re: [foru= m] Future of X ?
 
Apologies in advance,
I'm relatively new to the Linux world and t= he last time I used X heavily
was a long time ago on DecStations. Thus= I'm not going to give you
a long technical post today, although becom= ing more involved in the guts
of the system may be an option in the fu= ture.

For now, I thought I'd put out a few things to think about,<= BR>from the useland point of view:

1) Many Linux distros (and even= more users) are running a less than current
version of Xfree. If more= developers are being looked at, tasking some of them
to look after wh= atever version is the commonly installed version (when it is
not the = latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for users and the
perceptio= n of Xfree itself.

2) Not to be offensive about it, but the closed= (and rather aloof) nature
of the Xfree dev process is a direct result= of the lack of competition.
Linux kernel is wide open and faster movi= ng because if it wasn't, *BSD
might well leave it looking foolish. Phi= losophically, some might wish a
plague of competition on your house to= force you to be more open, but I
am here commenting in the hope that = this can happen in a less Darwinian
manner.

3) A short list of= things Xfree needs. Keep in mind tha I run Debian stable
mostly, so y= ou might have fixed some of these already, don't attack me for
that, m= use instead on point 1.
 
What happened to Branden Robinson?  I thought he ran Debian sta= ble branch?
 
Georgina
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_Z6729K64G6G000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_Z672E923LVC000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <62F286F0-4D20-4F59-9378-CB6216119DEE> R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_Z672E923LVC000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:55:21 2003 Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHtLVr075050 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:55:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w4G7-0004Rh-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:55:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E7A0140.000040.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:58:24 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_C972Z5E4G6G000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <20030320171642.55038.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05, WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: * Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_C972Z5E4G6G000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_C972UGI4G6G000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_C972UGI4G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:20:34 PM=0D To: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO=0D =0D one more thing, I know X primarily deals with video, but some=0D integrations with MAS might be nice for network transparent sound. =0D Plus, if Xfree86 were to integrate it it might be more easily picked up=0D by distros and other UNIXs so we would have a common audio interface.=0D =0D Alex=0D =0D What's MAS? And where can I learn more about it?=0D =0D Georgina --------------Boundary-00=_C972UGI4G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 12:20:34 PM
Subject: Re: [foru= m] XFree86 5.0 TODO
 
one more thing, I know X primarily deals with video, but some
int= egrations with MAS might be nice for network transparent sound.
Plus,= if Xfree86 were to integrate it it might be more easily picked up
by = distros and other UNIXs so we would have a common audio interface.
Alex
 
What's MAS?  And where can I learn more about it?
 
Georgina
 
 
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_C972UGI4G6G000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_C972Z5E4G6G000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_C972Z5E4G6G000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:57:51 2003 Received: from Cantor.suse.de (ns.suse.de [213.95.15.193]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHvpVr075133 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:57:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eich@suse.de) Received: from Hermes.suse.de (Hermes.suse.de [213.95.15.136]) by Cantor.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99DCA146D3 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:57:50 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15994.1185.965189.481847@xf11.fra.suse.de> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:12:49 +0100 From: Egbert Eich To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] thoughts In-Reply-To: todd@fries.net wrote on Thursday, 20 March 2003 at 09:45:18 -0600 References: <20030320154518.GG9122@openbsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.2 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Todd T. Fries writes: > I have wishes for the future of XFree86 that I believe I am incapable of > implementing; perhaps with some coaching and luck at finding free time may > change that, but suffice it to say I am responding to the call for future > desires of X. > > Future direction I personally would like to see: > > - lower memory footprint Unfortunately this doesn't coincide with the call for more features. The memory footprint is not entirely under the control of the Xserver. A lot of it is caused by applications which load incredibly many incredibly large pixmaps to the server they probably never need. Smarter applications can reduce the size of the server considerably. The memory footprint displayed by most tools is not the amount of memory consumed from your main memory. Memory mapped framebuffers and registers are also shown. > - more optional modules/protocols A lot of modules are optional. You can remove them from the Modules section in your config file and you don't see them. > - grandfathering of old protocol support, perhaps via an 'old' module, to > assist on the above Noone has any intention to drop support for the core X protocol. It doesn't hurt anybody, you have a lot of applications still using it. You need part of it for the 'new' extensions. Most old extensions are optional and don't get loaded. > - more effort at bringing 'legacy' drivers from 3.3.6 to 4.x This is difficult. The right thing would be to port them. > - support for IPv6 > - no change in license terms (free for all, including Keith to do his own > thing) > > I believe Keith Packard's kdrive does the first two (are there > _any_ plans to support IPv6 in X?). Yes, there are! In fact this was discussed, too on the meeting. There are some more open issues but I'm the wrong one to comment. > > I would like to thank everyone for their hard work on X that has brought > us to this point. Without it, many of us may not even be interested in > UNIX as a desktop + server os. > Thanks! Egbert. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:59:08 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHx8Vr075184 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:59:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hp@redhat.com) Received: (from hp@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KHx7324018 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:59:07 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:59:07 -0500 From: Havoc Pennington To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... Message-ID: <20030320125907.E16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <3E79F8FB.20605@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3E79F8FB.20605@sun.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.1 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 09:23:07AM -0800, Alan Coopersmith wrote: > Havoc Pennington wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 02:41:53PM +0100, Martijn Sipkema wrote: > > > >>Will XFree86 5.0 use Xft for font rendering or might > >>it (also) use Sun's STSF (http://stsf.sf.net)? > > > > Xft is the standard. STSF is a bad design, and none of the toolkits > > that matter are interested in supporting it. > > I'll admit we've found some problems with STSF that we've corrected > in our current development (yes, the web site is out of date, we're > working on an update), but we've found the core design works well for > us. What about it do you find to be bad? GTK+/Qt/GNOME/KDE/Mozilla are all already using fontconfig/Xft for a year or more, and they work very well for our needs while remaining very simple. fontconfig/Xft were developed in close cooperation with the toolkits and major open source desktop projects so it's not surprising that they work well for us. STSF is much more complicated, and the complexity is not solving any problem that we have. Aside from the technical issues, STSF is simply too late. fontconfig/Xft have already been adopted by both GTK+ and Qt which are the major toolkits, and we aren't interested in having another system. At this point, new functionality needs to take the form of enhancing Xft, not replacing it. Havoc From postmaster Thu Mar 20 09:59:58 2003 Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KHxwVr075207 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:59:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w4KZ-0004kt-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 09:59:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E7A0254.000043.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:03:00 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_0H72K1R4G6G000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <200303201630.22034.nolden@kde.org> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.3 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_0H72K1R4G6G000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_0H72FCV4G6G000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_0H72FCV4G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:45:04 AM=0D To: forum@XFree86.Org; Ruth Ivimey-Cook=0D Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO=0D =0D -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----=0D Hash: SHA1=0D =0D On Thursday 20 March 2003 16:16, Ruth Ivimey-Cook wrote:=0D > >9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension=0D > >replacing Xlib drawing routines.=0D >=0D > What status is this? Is there a demand? How does it differ in capabilit= y=0D > from the Display PostScript code.=0D =0D I think MacOS X does most of the animation stuff with postscript (the =0D minimizing of windows for example). The usage of such features need to be= =0D very transparently and easily made through the toolkits. Don't know any =0D specifics but I think there is a demand to get such cool features like OS= X =0D has.=0D =0D Ralf=0D =0D Yeah but Ralf that's all proprietary code, so the only way to get them is= by=0D observation on one of their expensive machines and reverse-engineer it.=0D I don't think that will be an easy task, since while AAPL OS X is now software implemented=0D it's also sloooooooooooooooooooow. To really get an audience to pay for their=0D gig they're gonna have to go to a hardware based implementation and since= =0D they are using NVDA for their graphics hardware I think that this would = be quite=0D insurmountable. The only solution I see is that ATI reverse it and use i= t as a=0D competitive edge and I don't know if ATYT is thinking that way.=0D =0D georgina --------------Boundary-00=_0H72FCV4G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 10:45:04 AM
Subject: Re: [foru= m] XFree86 5.0 TODO
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thursday = 20 March 2003 16:16, Ruth Ivimey-Cook wrote:
> >9. Xc/Xr - A pos= tscript rendering library for the RENDER extension
> >replacing = Xlib drawing routines.
>
> What status is this? Is there a de= mand? How does it differ in capability
> from the Display PostScrip= t code.

I think MacOS X does most of the animation stuff with post= script (the
minimizing of windows for example). The usage of such fea= tures need to be
very transparently and easily made through the toolk= its. Don't know any
specifics but I think there is a demand to get su= ch cool features like OS X
has.

Ralf
 
Yeah but Ralf that's all proprietary code, so the only way to get th= em is by
observation on one of their expensive machines and reverse-engineer = it.
I don't think that will be an easy task, since while AAPL OS X is no= w software implemented
it's also sloooooooooooooooooooow.  To really get an audience t= o pay for their
gig they're gonna have to go to a hardware based implementation and = since
they are using NVDA  for their graphics hardware I think t= hat this would be quite
insurmountable.  The only solution I see is that ATI reverse it= and use it as a
competitive edge and I don't know if ATYT is thinking that way.
 
georgina
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_0H72FCV4G6G000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_0H72K1R4G6G000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_0H72K1R4G6G000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:02:00 2003 Received: from fdd.com (fdd.com [64.81.147.80]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KI20Vr075352 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:02:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vektor@fdd.com) Received: from fdd.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by fdd.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h2KI20pI019326 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:02:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from vektor@localhost) by fdd.com (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id h2KI20rr007305 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:02:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:01:59 -0600 From: Billy Biggs To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Keith Packard issue Message-ID: <20030320180159.GV21136@dumbterm.net> References: <200303201401.h2KE1OM04940@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200303201553.32816.nolden@kde.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200303201553.32816.nolden@kde.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-16.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Ralf Nolden (nolden@kde.org): > On Thursday 20 March 2003 15:01, Alan Cox wrote: > > > FYI: the Keith Packard issue is now on Slashdot.org. > > > > The "Keith Packard" issue or the XFree86 issue ? > > Correct. The post which is going on all news sites now is IMHO one of > the most insulting posts that I ever read. Everyone who knows Keithp > in person knows that we're discussing a thing here that is bugging > literally everyone: I am sure I am not alone when I say that I have the utmost respect for Keith Packard and the work he has done, and am disappointed by the tone of the post by the XFree86 BOD. It was an attack I feel was unjustified and disrespectful to the work he has done in both the code and the community. -- Billy Biggs vektor@dumbterm.net From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:02:48 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KI2lVr075394 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:02:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hp@redhat.com) Received: (from hp@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KI2l325585 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:02:47 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:02:47 -0500 From: Havoc Pennington To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... Message-ID: <20030320130247.F16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <3E7A0031.000034.01268@persephone> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3E7A0031.000034.01268@persephone> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:53:53PM -0500, georgina o economou wrote: > What is this another NIH problem? No openness...just use Xft. > That's ridiculous Havoc. Closing your mind to alternatives just > makes your solution weaker. The font problem is already solved. STSF at this point doesn't add any value, and introduces big user migration headaches because fontconfig/Xft have already been widely deployed. People *have* looked at STSF, they just don't see what value it adds. Havoc From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:03:36 2003 Received: from mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KI3ZVr075410 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0601.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 058863400787 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:03:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w4Ny-0001il-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:03:26 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:03:25 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? Message-ID: <20030320180325.GA6528@iliana> References: <20030320112941.B21445@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU> <3E7A00EB.00003D.01268@persephone> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E7A00EB.00003D.01268@persephone> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:56:59PM -0500, georgina o economou wrote: > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: forum@XFree86.Org > Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:35:04 AM > To: forum@XFree86.Org > Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? > > Apologies in advance, > I'm relatively new to the Linux world and the last time I used X heavily > was a long time ago on DecStations. Thus I'm not going to give you > a long technical post today, although becoming more involved in the guts > of the system may be an option in the future. > > For now, I thought I'd put out a few things to think about, > from the useland point of view: > > 1) Many Linux distros (and even more users) are running a less than current > version of Xfree. If more developers are being looked at, tasking some of > them > to look after whatever version is the commonly installed version (when it is > > not the latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for users and the > perception of Xfree itself. > > 2) Not to be offensive about it, but the closed (and rather aloof) nature > of the Xfree dev process is a direct result of the lack of competition. > Linux kernel is wide open and faster moving because if it wasn't, *BSD > might well leave it looking foolish. Philosophically, some might wish a > plague of competition on your house to force you to be more open, but I > am here commenting in the hope that this can happen in a less Darwinian > manner. > > 3) A short list of things Xfree needs. Keep in mind tha I run Debian stable > mostly, so you might have fixed some of these already, don't attack me for > that, muse instead on point 1. > > What happened to Branden Robinson? I thought he ran Debian stable branch? Debian stable (woody), released in july last year runs XFree86 4.1.0. Debian unstable, the current developpment branch, runs XFree86 4.2.1. Remember that debian has more architectures to support that xfree86 test on linux, and that it is preferable to have a slightly older but stable and bugfree X than the latest release, but having had less testing. That said, there are 4.2.1 and 4.3.0 backports for woody and unstable available, just not in the official archive. Still wish you would do something about your quoting. BTW, is this list subscriber only, so i can put it in my spam whitelist ? Friendly, Sven Luther > > Georgina From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:06:30 2003 Received: from mwinf0302.wanadoo.fr (smtp4.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.28]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KI6UVr075574 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:06:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0302.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01D31C00016B for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:06:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w4Qo-0001jo-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:06:22 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:06:22 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320180622.GB6528@iliana> References: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <200303201708.48146.nolden@kde.org> <15993.65475.981432.593860@xf11.fra.suse.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15993.65475.981432.593860@xf11.fra.suse.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 06:52:03PM +0100, Egbert Eich wrote: > Ralf Nolden writes: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Thursday 20 March 2003 16:20, Alex Deucher wrote: > > > - a more dynamic X server. The ability to change configs, change > > > dualhead layouts, tv out, etc. on the fly. User definable hot buttons > > > to change configs, outputs etc. > > > > The s3switch program may help for S3 cards and serve for an example for cards > > that allow switching, there's also a KDE frontend (ks3switch). Would be nice > > if that gets integrated with a common interface into X for all cards who > > support this. > > > > Yes, I have an extension in mind that whould allow to do exactly this. > Each chipset has different capabilities. It would therefore be similar > to the Xv video atributes. :((( Would you care to explain a bit more about how this would work ? And in particular why there cannot be a common set of functionalities, where chips not supporting them just not implementing them or something such ? Or are there really all that much difference between how a matrox and a ati dual head card do it ? Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:07:11 2003 Received: from scream.east.isi.edu (mail@scream.east.isi.edu [65.114.169.27]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KI7BVr075603 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cworth@east.isi.edu) Received: from cworth by scream.east.isi.edu with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w4Ra-0006OU-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:07:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15994.834.355805.672308@scream.east.isi.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:06:58 -0500 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] Xr/Xc and SVG status (was: XFree86 5.0 TODO) In-Reply-To: <3E79FDD7.00002B.01268@persephone> References: <15993.59220.771240.143445@scream.east.isi.edu> <3E79FDD7.00002B.01268@persephone> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under Emacs 21.2.2 From: Carl Worth X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.7 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Mar 20, georgina o economou wrote: > Carl Worth wrote: > > I've been actively developing the Xr/Xc code. There hasn't been a > > decent forum at xfree86.org for discussing it since the inexplicable > > termination of the render@xfree86.org list (I truly miss the high SNR > > of that list). > > Carl why didn't you just post a technical discussion on devel? When render@xfree86.org was retired (3 January 2003), it was consolidated into xfree86@xfree86.org which has a much, much lower SNR for me, (where I define signal as technical discussion that I care about). At that time I wasn't aware of the possibility of posting to devel@xfree86.org, (if it even existed). > That's historically worked for XFree86. Historically? Wasn't this a private list until quite recently? I know I only learned about it recently, (and the archives linked to from xfree86.org only date back to 30 January 2003). -Carl From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:10:02 2003 Received: from scream.east.isi.edu (mail@scream.east.isi.edu [65.114.169.27]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIA1Vr075704 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:10:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cworth@east.isi.edu) Received: from cworth by scream.east.isi.edu with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w4UL-0006Ol-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:10:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15994.1010.217462.341267@scream.east.isi.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:09:54 -0500 To: forum@xfree86.org In-Reply-To: <15994.257.458049.70749@xf11.fra.suse.de> References: <15993.59220.771240.143445@scream.east.isi.edu> <15994.257.458049.70749@xf11.fra.suse.de> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under Emacs 21.2.2 From: Carl Worth X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.5 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,SUBJECT_IS_LIST version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] xfree86 mailing list policy (was: Xr/Xc and SVG status) Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Mar 20, Egbert Eich wrote: > Yes, these lists have been removed to simplify the structure. > > We may have to consider to have special purpose lists for these > topics. Is there any public policy about how list management is controlled? Who decides what lists exist? Who decides when several lists are merged together? What would it take for a new potential developer to propose a new mailing list? -Carl -- Carl Worth USC Information Sciences Institute cworth@isi.edu From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:12:02 2003 Received: from hicks.adgrafix.com (hicks.adgrafix.com [64.55.193.2]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIC2Vr096311 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:12:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keith@tungstengraphics.com) Received: from tungstengraphics.com ([213.78.159.49]) by hicks.adgrafix.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h2KIC1P14081 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:12:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3E7A0474.3060303@tungstengraphics.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 18:12:04 +0000 From: Keith Whitwell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020830 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 References: <3E79FF1F.000031.01268@persephone> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=6.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: georgina o economou wrote: > > > /-------Original Message-------/ > > /*From:*/ forum@XFree86.Org > /*Date:*/ Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:20:27 PM > /*To:*/ forum@XFree86.Org > /*Subject:*/ [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 > > David Dawes has asked that anyone with an interest in X or XFree86 > contribute to this discussion, so I am taking this opportunity to air a > suggestion that I hope the current BOD and slate of XFree86 officers will > seriously consider. > > I am the CEO of Tungsten Graphics, a development organization that has a > strong vested interest in the success of X and XFree86, so it is very > important to TG that XFree86 remain a viable organization. Most of the > comments on this list have been directed to specific complaints or technical > issues that, however important, are not the root cause of this problem. We > are seeing Keith Packard, a loyal and dedicated XFree86 contributor, > publicly express his frustration with an organization in which he has more > personal control than the vast majority of other people whose livelihood > depends on XFree86's continued success. David Dawes has turned to that > constituency to assist him in resolving this situation. Both of these > actions imply there is an organizational problem within XFree86 itself. > > > Odd comment since TG owns 2 core developers already. What are you looking > to take over and maintain XFRee86 like you did DRI? I guess that's why > you have your point man Whitwell, gunning for the org. Revolting > self-pandering if you ask me. Hmm, I'm pretty sure this is a case of a joke not coming out completely like it was intended... Anyway, I can't leave it completely alone: TG doesn't "own" core developers, as I'm sure they'll attest... and PI didn't take over the dri - it *created* it (big difference), and then learnt the value of openness (and some other hard lessons). Keith From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:13:29 2003 Received: from web11306.mail.yahoo.com (web11306.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.209]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KIDTVr031691 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:13:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from agd5f@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030320181329.92946.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.135.61.199] by web11306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:13:29 PST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:13:29 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Deucher Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO To: forum@xfree86.org Cc: jackedog@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <3E7A0140.000040.01268@persephone> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.5 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://www.mediaapplicationserver.net/ --- georgina o economou wrote: > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: forum@XFree86.Org > Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:20:34 PM > To: forum@XFree86.Org > Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO > > one more thing, I know X primarily deals with video, but some > integrations with MAS might be nice for network transparent sound. > Plus, if Xfree86 were to integrate it it might be more easily picked > up > by distros and other UNIXs so we would have a common audio interface. > > Alex > > What's MAS? And where can I learn more about it? > > Georgina __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:14:48 2003 Received: from turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net (turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.126]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIElVr060998 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:14:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by turkey.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w4Yu-0007FX-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:14:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E7A05CD.000046.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:17:49 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_P5825X34G6G000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <3E79E766.1020503@tungstengraphics.com> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.3 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_P5825X34G6G000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_P5820774G6G000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_P5820774G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:50:24 AM=0D To: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Cc: dri-devel=0D Subject: Re: [forum] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X=0D =0D Alan Hourihane wrote:=0D > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:37:34 +0000, Keith Whitwell wrote:=0D > =0D >>XFree86 BOD wrote:=0D >>=0D >>=0D >>>It has been brought to the attention of the XFree86 Core Team that one= =0D >>>of its members, Keith Packard, has been actively (but privately) seeki= ng=0D >>>out support for a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is=0D >>>also in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested=0D >>>interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and the=0D >>>future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclose these concer= ns=0D >>>within the context of the XFree86 Core Team, which makes his membershi= p=0D >>>of that team unviable. As a consequence, Keith Packard is no longer a=0D >>>member of the XFree86 Core Team.=0D >>=0D >>What specifically does the XFree86 bod see as being wrong with the idea= of =0D >>a 'by-invitation-only group' managing X server development? Isn't that = =0D >>exactly what the core team & xfree86 BOD have been doing all along?=0D > =0D > =0D > Not exactly. Long ago, that was probably right, but these days you=0D > could probably see the Core Team as a bunch of committers to the CVS,=0D > obviously with their own areas of technical knowledge as well.=0D > And yes, we've met on occasion, but more in the reality of a coding=0D > frenzy to work on what we wanted to work on. =0D =0D It's a spin thing. "Core team" sounds exclusionary, where as "Developers = who =0D have been granted CVS access" sounds pretty inclusive... and even more =0D inclusive if there is regular induction of developers into that group.=0D =0D > More recently to talk about=0D > XFree86 5.0, of which I've sent what I wrote down to this list already.= =0D =0D Doesn't this contradict your assertion that you're just a bunch of committers? =0D Yes, I appreciate your post today, but would it (or the openness post) ha= ve =0D happened if keithp was still a happy core teamer?=0D =0D > As for the BOD list, the Core Team doesn't know what goes on within tha= t=0D > list either, not that it bothers me at all.=0D =0D I wonder what the BOD is for. It could be clearer.=0D =0D >>Maybe the core team & bod could explain what is being hinted as a new =0D >>spirit of openness and how that is proposed to effect the XFree86 =0D >>development process and strategy? Will it mean forinstance an end to th= e =0D >>sort of behind-closed-doors discussions that appear to have lead to thi= s =0D >>announcement?=0D > =0D > =0D > You'd be surprised if you saw what is actually discussed on the Core Te= am=0D > lists. Not much at all, apart from recent events that led up to this em= ail =0D > I have to say, that a lot of the Core Team is still in the dark on why=0D > Keith decided to divert his attention away from XFree86 in the way that= =0D > has transpired. We're as much in the dark as you Keith Whitwell (though= t I d=0D > better add your surname to avoid confusion).=0D =0D It's hard to see that keithp was unhappy about cvs access as he obviously had =0D it himself. Similarly he would have been privy at least to the core team = =0D masonic plotting, so that wouldn't have been a big issue for him either.=0D =0D The biggest issue I have with KeithP's mutinous plot was he did not resig= n.=0D Other than that who cares? I mean really. I think KeithP should have resigned=0D and then flooded the XFree86 lists with his demands and his new fork. No= w =0D that would have chutzpah! But this way he just looks sneaky. =0D =0D =0D =0D =0D I have to wonder if it was he who originated the idea of a split, or whet= her =0D he was approached by the evil, frustrated "vested interests" and asked to lead =0D a more responsive fork, that would allow them to expand the pool of committers =0D more easily. From mharris' diary, I wouldn't be suprised - although it =0D doesn't seem like he personally had any knowledge of a coming fork.=0D =0D =0D Why do you say that? I think Mike instigated and wanted this a while ago= =2E=0D He said as much. "Him and other distro maintainers". I would imagine si= nce=0D he is the maintainer for the de facto standard distro he's a very unhappy camper.=0D So how do you know that unless he's told you. Or did you ask?=0D =0D =0D Georgina=20 --------------Boundary-00=_P5820774G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 11:50:24 AM
Subject: Re: [foru= m] Re: [XFree86] Invitation for public discussion about the future of X
 
Alan Hourihane wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:37:34 +0000= , Keith Whitwell wrote:
>
>>XFree86 BOD wrote:
>>= ;
>>
>>>It has been brought to the attention of the = XFree86 Core Team that one
>>>of its members, Keith Packard, = has been actively (but privately) seeking
>>>out support for = a fork of XFree86 that would be led by himself. He is
>>>also= in the process of forming a by-invitation-only group of vested
>&g= t;>interests to discuss privately concerns he has about XFree86 and th= e
>>>future of X. He has consistently refused to even disclos= e these concerns
>>>within the context of the XFree86 Core Te= am, which makes his membership
>>>of that team unviable. As a= consequence, Keith Packard is no longer a
>>>member of the X= Free86 Core Team.
>>
>>What specifically does the XFree= 86 bod see as being wrong with the idea of
>>a 'by-invitation-o= nly group' managing X server development? Isn't that
>>exactly = what the core team & xfree86 BOD have been doing all along?
> <= BR>>
> Not exactly. Long ago, that was probably right, but thes= e days you
> could probably see the Core Team as a bunch of committ= ers to the CVS,
> obviously with their own areas of technical knowl= edge as well.
> And yes, we've met on occasion, but more in the rea= lity of a coding
> frenzy to work on what we wanted to work on.
It's a spin thing. "Core team" sounds exclusionary, where as "Develo= pers who
have been granted CVS access" sounds pretty inclusive... and= even more
inclusive if there is regular induction of developers into= that group.

> More recently to talk about
> XFree86 5.0,= of which I've sent what I wrote down to this list already.

Doesn'= t this contradict your assertion that you're just a bunch of committers? =
Yes, I appreciate your post today, but would it (or the openness post= ) have
happened if keithp was still a happy core teamer?

> = As for the BOD list, the Core Team doesn't know what goes on within that<= BR>> list either, not that it bothers me at all.

I wonder what = the BOD is for. It could be clearer.

>>Maybe the core team &= amp; bod could explain what is being hinted as a new
>>spirit o= f openness and how that is proposed to effect the XFree86
>>dev= elopment process and strategy? Will it mean forinstance an end to the >>sort of behind-closed-doors discussions that appear to have lead= to this
>>announcement?
>
>
> You'd be sur= prised if you saw what is actually discussed on the Core Team
> lis= ts. Not much at all, apart from recent events that led up to this email.<= BR>> I have to say, that a lot of the Core Team is still in the dark o= n why
> Keith decided to divert his attention away from XFree86 in = the way that
> has transpired. We're as much in the dark as you Kei= th Whitwell (thought I'd
> better add your surname to avoid confusi= on).

It's hard to see that keithp was unhappy about cvs access as = he obviously had
it himself. Similarly he would have been privy at le= ast to the core team
masonic plotting, so that wouldn't have been a b= ig issue for him either.
 
The biggest issue I have with KeithP's mutinous plot was he did not = resign.
Other than that who cares?  I mean really.  I think KeithP= should have resigned
and then flooded the XFree86 lists with his demands and his new fork= =2E  Now
that would have chutzpah!  But this way he just looks sneaky.&n= bsp;
 
 


I have to wonder if it was he who originated the idea of a s= plit, or whether
he was approached by the evil, frustrated "vested in= terests" and asked to lead
a more responsive fork, that would allow t= hem to expand the pool of committers
more easily. From mharris' diary= , I wouldn't be suprised - although it
doesn't seem like he personall= y had any knowledge of a coming fork.
 
 
Why do you say that?  I think Mike instigated and wanted this a= while ago.
He said as much.  "Him and other distro maintainers".  I w= ould imagine since
he is the maintainer for the de facto standard distro he's a very un= happy camper.
So how do you know that unless he's told you.  Or did you ask?<= /DIV>
 
 
Georgina
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_P5820774G6G000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_P5825X34G6G000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <7010735A-E514-4AE7-BA5B-78AA43770C92> R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_P5825X34G6G000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:16:55 2003 Received: from localhost ([63.227.221.253]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIGtVr004494 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keithp@keithp.com) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=keithp.com) by localhost with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w4b1-0007Mn-00; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:16:55 -0800 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 11/28/2001 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: forum@xfree86.org cc: Keith Packard Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... From: Keith Packard In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:41:53 +0100." <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:16:55 -0800 Message-Id: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.5 required=6.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Around 14 o'clock on Mar 20, Martijn Sipkema wrote: > Will XFree86 5.0 use Xft for font rendering or might > it (also) use Sun's STSF (http://stsf.sf.net)? You're trying to compare apples with oranges. Xft is just a new way of placing specific glyphs at specific locations on the screen while STSF is a whole text layout system that computes the location for the glyphs based on complex information available in modern font formats like OpenType's GSUB and GPOS tables. STSF is much more comparable with Pango in it's functionality. These are "text layout engines", and only a few of them have been deployed anywhere. Because this area of work is so new, I hope we'll see lots of different ideas explored so that we can get a sense of what things work best. It may be that in a while we'll all have a general agreement on the basic operations of the system and may be able to standardize on a single interface, but I think it's imprudent to just pick one now and hope it all works out. I will say that I hope STSF can take advantage of what we've learned about handling fonts entirely on the client side of the wire. -keith From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:18:16 2003 Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIIGVr034564 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:18:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alan.coopersmith@sun.com) Received: from phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.21.20]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26138 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:18:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com (vpn-129-150-17-125.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.17.125]) by phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id h2KIIF009429 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:18:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E7A05F0.1050107@sun.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:18:24 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020921 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] MAS (was: XFree86 5.0 TODO) References: <20030320171642.55038.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> <3E7A0140.000040.01268@persephone> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-8.5 required=6.0 tests=QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: georgina o economou wrote: >> one more thing, I know X primarily deals with video, but some >> integrations with MAS might be nice for network transparent sound. >> Plus, if Xfree86 were to integrate it it might be more easily picked up >> by distros and other UNIXs so we would have a common audio interface. > What's MAS? And where can I learn more about it? A new network-transpart audio system designed to integrate with X. It's been sponsored in part by X.org - more info is available at: http://www.mediaapplicationserver.net/ Links to it and other work going on for X at the X.org level can be found at http://www.x.org/X11_technologies.html -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Sun Software Group Quality, Integration, & Customer Success (QICS) Platform Globalization Engin. - X11 Engineering From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:19:18 2003 Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIJHVr053866 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:19:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w4dF-0007HG-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:19:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E7A06DA.000049.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:22:18 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_6D82QTF4G6G000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <1048182798.1607.101.camel@thor> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_6D82QTF4G6G000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_6D82L3J4G6G000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_6D82L3J4G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:55:28 PM=0D To: forum@xfree86.org=0D Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ?=0D =0D On Don, 2003-03-20 at 17:29, indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU wrote:=0D > =0D > 1) Many Linux distros (and even more users) are running a less than current=0D > version of Xfree. If more developers are being looked at, tasking some = of them=0D > to look after whatever version is the commonly installed version (when = it is =0D > not the latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for users and the=0D > perception of Xfree itself.=0D =0D Good idea, I think we could use frequent bugfix releases, in particular=0D now that a bunch of more or less serious problems seem to have crept=0D into 4.3.0.=0D =0D =0D But why not just pull from the CVS? You must know how.....=0D =0D =0D Georgina=20 --------------Boundary-00=_6D82L3J4G6G000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 12:55:28 PM
Subject: Re: [foru= m] Future of X ?
 
On Don, 2003-03-20 at 17:29, indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU wrote:
>
> 1) Many Linux distros= (and even more users) are running a less than current
> version of= Xfree. If more developers are being looked at, tasking some of them
&= gt; to look after whatever version is the commonly installed version (whe= n it is
> not the latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for u= sers and the
> perception of Xfree itself.

Good idea, I thin= k we could use frequent bugfix releases, in particular
now that a bunc= h of more or less serious problems seem to have crept
into 4.3.0.
<= /DIV>
 
But why not just pull from the CVS?  You must know how.....
 
 
Georgina
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_6D82L3J4G6G000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_6D82QTF4G6G000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_6D82QTF4G6G000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:19:50 2003 Received: from ns2.tudelft.nl (ns2.tudelft.nl [130.161.180.65]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIJnVr062552 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:19:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msipkema@sipkema-digital.com) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.mailhost1.tudelft.nl by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) id <0HC20080188ZAH@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:19:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl (lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl [130.161.166.23]) by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) with ESMTP id <0HC20074O88ZHA@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:19:47 +0100 (MET) Received: from boromir (boromir.lr-s.tudelft.nl [145.94.77.58]) by lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2656.59) id FR8LAMY8; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:19:49 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:19:40 +0100 From: Martijn Sipkema Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... To: forum@XFree86.Org Message-id: <004201c2ef0d$45fbd320$161b14ac@boromir> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <3E7A0031.000034.01268@persephone> <20030320130247.F16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=6.0 tests=INVALID_MSGID,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_OE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: Martijn Sipkema List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > The font problem is already solved. That's a matter of opinion. > STSF at this point doesn't add any > value I like the fact that STSF uses a font server. That could be seen as added value... > , and introduces big user migration headaches because > fontconfig/Xft have already been widely deployed. I doubt this will be a real problem. > People *have* looked at STSF, they just don't see what value it adds. It seems there are others who _do_ think it adds value. But that's not even what you said earlier. You stated it was bad design. Would you care to elaborate on that? --ms From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:24:12 2003 Received: from Cantor.suse.de (ns.suse.de [213.95.15.193]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIOAVr043580 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:24:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eich@suse.de) Received: from Hermes.suse.de (Hermes.suse.de [213.95.15.136]) by Cantor.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393F4145DD for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:24:10 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15994.2757.971113.930291@xf11.fra.suse.de> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:39:01 +0100 From: Egbert Eich To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO In-Reply-To: luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr wrote on Thursday, 20 March 2003 at 19:06:22 +0100 References: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <200303201708.48146.nolden@kde.org> <15993.65475.981432.593860@xf11.fra.suse.de> <20030320180622.GB6528@iliana> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.2 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Sven Luther writes: > :((( ??? > > Would you care to explain a bit more about how this would work ? And in I have no clear draft yet. So you'd have to wait. > particular why there cannot be a common set of functionalities, where > chips not supporting them just not implementing them or something such ? Sure, there will be a registry where you can register attributes your driver offers. If another driver wants to offer the same it should reuse this attribute. You can query which attributes are offered by a specific driver and you can query the type and range of its arguments. > > Or are there really all that much difference between how a matrox and a > ati dual head card do it ? > Possibly not. But I would not rule out that you want to add something specific for a certain card where you can be pretty sure no other card will ever offer it. Egbert. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:24:32 2003 Received: from ns2.tudelft.nl (ns2.tudelft.nl [130.161.180.65]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIOVVr045635 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:24:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msipkema@sipkema-digital.com) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.mailhost1.tudelft.nl by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) id <0HC2009018GTOT@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:24:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl (lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl [130.161.166.23]) by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) with ESMTP id <0HC2003LO8GTO1@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:24:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from boromir (boromir.lr-s.tudelft.nl [145.94.77.58]) by lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2656.59) id FR8LAMZM; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:24:31 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:24:22 +0100 From: Martijn Sipkema Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... To: forum@XFree86.Org Message-id: <004b01c2ef0d$ee034440$161b14ac@boromir> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <3E79F8FB.20605@sun.com> <20030320125907.E16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.4 required=6.0 tests=INVALID_MSGID,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT_OE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: Martijn Sipkema List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > > I'll admit we've found some problems with STSF that we've corrected > > in our current development (yes, the web site is out of date, we're > > working on an update), but we've found the core design works well for > > us. What about it do you find to be bad? > > GTK+/Qt/GNOME/KDE/Mozilla are all already using fontconfig/Xft for a > year or more, and they work very well for our needs while remaining > very simple. fontconfig/Xft were developed in close cooperation with > the toolkits and major open source desktop projects so it's not > surprising that they work well for us. > > STSF is much more complicated, and the complexity is not solving any > problem that we have. Perhaps it solves problems others may have. And why not comment on the design problems you said STSF has? > Aside from the technical issues, STSF is simply too late. I doubt that. > fontconfig/Xft have already been adopted by both GTK+ and Qt which are > the major toolkits, and we aren't interested in having another system. There may be others who use X without these toolkits. And there are other toolkits. Do you speak for these too, assuming you speak for all GTK+ and QT developers? --ms From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:34:09 2003 Received: from magic.shiman.com (magic.shiman.com [199.103.167.18]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIY8Vr024382 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:34:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leon@magic.shiman.com) Received: from magic.shiman.com (magic.shiman.com [199.103.167.18]) by magic.shiman.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h2KIY8919015 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:34:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200303201834.h2KIY8919015@magic.shiman.com> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:34:08 -0500 (EST) From: Leon Shiman Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO To: forum@XFree86.Org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-MD5: MraxXNNa1qa0u02GHajjIA== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.3.0 @(#)CDE Version 1.4.2 SunOS 5.8 i86pc i386 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by public.xfree86.org id h2KIY9Vr024513 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.2 required=6.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: Leon Shiman List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: georgina writes: >>one more thing, I know X primarily deals with video, but some >>integrations with MAS might be nice for network transparent sound. >>Plus, if Xfree86 were to integrate it it might be more easily picked up >>by distros and other UNIXs so we would have a common audio interface. >>Alex >What's MAS? And where can I learn more about it? >Georgina MAS, a Media Application Server, was developed to support X11's need for full audio and media support, which "follows the display variable"; a network transparent and platform independent solution. MAS has been developed by SAI with the endorsement and approval of X.Org, and with partial financial support by X.Org and Sun. It is released under the MIT ("X") license. It is in the works as an X Standard. MAS has many features which, while fully supporting X11, provide a new paradigm for peer to peer network communication. MAS provides time-management and synchronization for network data transport, independent of data type. MAS has immediate application not only as a sound server, but for streaming and interactive pluri-modal media and for Accessibility support. MAS has already been ported to several platforms. The project site URL: http://www.MediaApplicationServer.net. Shiman Associates Inc (SAI) is the developer and project maintainer. Leon Shiman Associates Inc (SAI) 163 Tappan Street Brookline MA 02445 USA tel: (00)1.617.277.0087 From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:25:06 2003 Received: from ebene.inrialpes.fr (ebene.inrialpes.fr [194.199.18.70]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIP5Vr051722 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:25:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from David.Bellot@inria.fr) Received: from imap-serv.inrialpes.fr (imap-serv.inrialpes.fr [194.199.18.72]) by ebene.inrialpes.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2KIP2W27381 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:25:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from inria.fr (pastel.inrialpes.fr [194.199.21.71]) by imap-serv.inrialpes.fr (8.11.6/8.11.3/ImagV2) with ESMTP id h2KIP4d05610 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:25:04 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3E7A06EE.30800@inria.fr> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:22:38 +0100 From: David Bellot User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030313 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.8 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA, X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I agree with the fact that Xfree should turn to a more democratic process. We could establish simple rules in order to help the management of Xfree without allowing every guy in the world to have a vote equal to the others. But it is only a matter of democratic organization. The most important part of the message of TG is : "the Xfree organization has to evolve !". And, IMHO, I find very sad that a great developper like keithp goes away from the Xfree project ! Very sad ! I hope he will come back and contribute more code ! And X has to evolve too : great ideas are in the Berlin project (or whatever project you like, Berlin is an example, not a troll). DB -- --------------------------------------------------- David Bellot, PhD SHARP project - INRIA Rhône-Alpes ZIRST - 655 avenue de l'Europe 38330 Montbonnot Saint Martin FRANCE Email : David.Bellot@inria.fr Web : http://www.inrialpes.fr/sharp/people/bellot --------------------------------------------------- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:25:34 2003 Received: from web11306.mail.yahoo.com (web11306.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.209]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KIPYVr052853 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:25:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from agd5f@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030320182533.94948.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.135.61.199] by web11306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:25:33 PST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:25:33 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Deucher Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: <20030320171642.55038.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: regarding X transparency... X-Transparency protocol extension http://www.directfb.org/mailinglists/directfb-dev/2002/12-2002/msg00136.html http://www.directfb.org/mailinglists/directfb-dev/2003/02-2003/msg00000.html Alex > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > Well, > > > > As this forum is for discussing all X stuff, here goes with a few > > notes > > from an XFree86 Core Team meeting from a little while back. So in > the > > spirit of openness I thought I should discuss it here. > > > > This is stuff that we can think of that needs doing for XFree86 > 5.0, > > but > > by no means is it limited to this list or even guarantee'ing > anything > > on the list will make it for 5.0. > > > > So, to spark discussions, here it is.... > > > > 1. Redesign of XAA, so that multiple depth pixmaps can be stored in > > offscreen > > memory and the creation of a new directive - called the XAASurface. > > There > > will undoubtably be driver work involved to port to the new > > interface. > > The > > techinical lead on this is Mark Vojkovich. I believe Mark has a > > substantial > > portion of this done, if not all. > > > > 2. FBManager extensions. This still needs furthur thought to > > encompass > > the requirements of all bases, but, the DRI is one that needs much > > more > > flexible memory management of the framebuffer. Secondly, it's been > > requested before for linear allocation, rather than the current > area > > allocation code for some Xv implementations. > > > > 3. Xlib locale removal. By removing all the Xlc code from libX11 > and > > see > > if we can layer it on top of iconv. Need to discuss the advantages > > and > > disadvantages of such a task. > > > > 4. DGA - do we leave in, or do we shelve it ? > > > > 5. RandR. We now have rotation support, but not depth switching > yet. > > This > > still needs to be done. > > > > 6. PseudoColor emulation. Egbert Eich has written some preliminary > > code > > for this, and we're hoping he'll be able to release it soon. > > > > 7. Hot Plugging of devices. Displays, Keyboards, Mice. This is > > obviously > > tricky when running multiple Xservers on the same machine. How do > you > > correlate which device is plugged in, to which Xserver etc. > > > > 8. Multiseat capability. Allowing multiple Xservers to run with > > independent > > graphics cards, keyboards and mice on the same machine. > > > > 9. Xc/Xr - A postscript rendering library for the RENDER extension > > replacing > > Xlib drawing routines. > > > > 10. Window translucency. > > > > 11. XFixes extension. > > > > 12. Gamma corrected RENDER > > > > 13. Potential DIX/DDX changes. > > > > Any other topics, please bring up for discussion. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > > desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Forum mailing list > > Forum@XFree86.Org > > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Forum mailing list > Forum@XFree86.Org > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:27:09 2003 Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIR8Vr064420 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:27:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w4kt-0004tX-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:27:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3E7A08B4.00004F.01268@persephone> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:30:12 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Content-Type: Multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_CQ82WK45BHK000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1850924) From: "georgina o economou" References: <15994.1010.217462.341267@scream.east.isi.edu> X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 X-FVER: X-CNT: ; X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: Re: [forum] xfree86 mailing list policy (was: Xr/Xc and SVG status) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=6.0 tests=ASCII_FORM_ENTRY,BIG_FONT,CLICK_BELOW,CLICK_HERE_LINK, EXTRA_MPART_TYPE,MAILTO_LINK,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,SUBJECT_IS_LIST,WEB_BUGS version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: --------------Boundary-00=_CQ82WK45BHK000000000 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_CQ82RV85BHK000000000" --------------Boundary-00=_CQ82RV85BHK000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: forum@XFree86.Org=0D Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 01:15:25 PM=0D To: forum@xfree86.org=0D Subject: [forum] xfree86 mailing list policy (was: Xr/Xc and SVG status)=0D =0D On Mar 20, Egbert Eich wrote:=0D > Yes, these lists have been removed to simplify the structure.=0D > =0D > We may have to consider to have special purpose lists for these=0D > topics.=0D =0D Is there any public policy about how list management is controlled?=0D Who decides what lists exist? Who decides when several lists are=0D merged together? What would it take for a new potential developer to=0D propose a new mailing list?=0D =0D -Carl=0D =0D =0D What exactly do you and Egbert have against one devel and one bug trackin= g list?=0D The kernel works with one list, and not even an official other one for subtopics.=0D If you belong like I do to linux-fbdev you will get linux-fbdev and kerne= l when they=0D cross post? Why not do the same? Go to sourceforge, make a list and the= n=0D cross post? =0D =0D Georgina=20 --------------Boundary-00=_CQ82RV85BHK000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: Thursday, Ma= rch 20, 2003 01:15:25 PM
Subject: [forum] x= free86 mailing list policy (was: Xr/Xc and SVG status)
 
On Mar 20, Egbert Eich wrote:
> Yes, these lists have been rem= oved to simplify the structure.
>
> We may have to consider = to have special purpose lists for these
> topics.

Is there a= ny public policy about how list management is controlled?
Who decides = what lists exist? Who decides when several lists are
merged together? = What would it take for a new potential developer to
propose a new mail= ing list?

-Carl
 
What exactly do you and Egbert have against one devel and one bug tr= acking list?
The kernel works with one list, and not even an official other one f= or subtopics.
If you belong like I do to linux-fbdev you will get linux-fbdev and = kernel when they
cross post?  Why not do the same?  Go to sourceforge, make= a list and then
cross post? 
 
Georgina
______________________= ______________________________
<= A href=3D"http://www.incredimail.com/redir.asp?ad_id=3D309&lang=3D9">= 3D""  IncrediMail - Email has= finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_CQ82RV85BHK000000000-- --------------Boundary-00=_CQ82WK45BHK000000000 Content-Type: image/gif; name="IMSTP.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <77D38ED0-64E4-4812-8CC6-640A78ED3BA2> R0lGODlhFAAPALMIAP9gAM9gAM8vAM9gL/+QL5AvAGAvAP9gL////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAACH/C05FVFNDQVBFMi4wAwEAAAAh+QQJFAAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEVRDJSaudJuudrxlEKI6B URlCUYyjKpgYAKSgOBSCDEuGDKgrAtC3Q/R+hkPJEDgYCjpKr5A8WK9OaPFZwHoPqm3366VKyeRt E30tVVRscMHDqV/u+AgAIfkEBWQACAAsAAAAABQADwAABBIQyUmrvTjrzbv/YCiOZGmeaAQAIfkE CRQACAAsAgABABAADQAABEoQIUOrpXIOwrsPxiQUheeRAgUA49YNhbCqK1kS9grQhXGAhsDBUJgZ AL2Dcqkk7ogFpvRAokSn0p4PO6UIuUsQggSmFjKXdAgRAQAh+QQFCgAIACwAAAAAFAAPAAAEEhDJ Sau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oBAAh+QQJFAAIACwCAAEAEAANAAAEShAhQ6ulcg7Cuw/GJBSF55ECBQDj 1g2FsKorWRL2CtCFcYCGwMFQmBkAvYNyqSTuiAWm9ECiRKfSng87pQi5SxCCBKYWMpd0CBEBACH5 BAVkAAgALAAAAAAUAA8AAAQSEMlJq7046827/2AojmRpnmgEADs= --------------Boundary-00=_CQ82WK45BHK000000000-- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:31:08 2003 Received: from web11302.mail.yahoo.com (web11302.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.205]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KIV8Vr098594 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:31:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from agd5f@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030320183106.20248.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.135.61.199] by web11302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:31:06 PST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:31:06 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Deucher Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: <3E7A06DA.000049.01268@persephone> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.5 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: There is the perception that until a release is "official" it's unstable no matter how stable CVS code may be. often distros won't ship a cvs version of a app even if it is more stable or provides more functionality than any relased version simply because it not "released." --- georgina o economou wrote: > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: forum@XFree86.Org > Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:55:28 PM > To: forum@xfree86.org > Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? > > On Don, 2003-03-20 at 17:29, indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU wrote: > > > > 1) Many Linux distros (and even more users) are running a less than > current > > version of Xfree. If more developers are being looked at, tasking > some of > them > > to look after whatever version is the commonly installed version > (when it > is > > not the latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for users and > the > > perception of Xfree itself. > > Good idea, I think we could use frequent bugfix releases, in > particular > now that a bunch of more or less serious problems seem to have crept > into 4.3.0. > > > But why not just pull from the CVS? You must know how..... > > > Georgina __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:34:27 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIYQVr026647 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:34:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alan@redhat.com) Received: (from alan@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KIYPT02045 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:34:25 -0500 From: Alan Cox Message-Id: <200303201834.h2KIYPT02045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 To: forum@XFree86.Org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:34:25 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Frank LaMonica" at Mar 20, 2003 11:07:17 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.5 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > depends on XFree86's continued success. David Dawes has turned to that > constituency to assist him in resolving this situation. Both of these After kicking Keith out. Bad mistake but whats done is done. > The ONLY thing XFree86 needs to do to correct this problem is to establish a > mechanism where any interested person may join XFree86 and be given an equal > vote to elect a slate of candidates for a governing board of directors whose This isnt about voting, governance and dictatorship IMHO, its about change. XFree86 is hard to get involved with usefully, resistant to cool ideas and strongly wedded to an occasional not rolling regular release model. Some of that is historic - both from the X consortium and the original XFree membership setup. Some of it has made sense at times too. X has to evolve, X has to do cool stuff, X has to let people break stuff, X has to delegate trust to driver maintainers far more. To me it doesn't matter if Keith and friends spin off an "Xperimental" or XFree itself changes, but that change is vital to the future of X11. If the XFree BOD doesn't want to be the evolving at high rate and really believes the current plodding progress is the right path, don't harass Keith work with him, endorse an Xperimental project and see what it produces. If it works the community wins, if it fails you get both to smirk, and to take the good bits and the lessons it learned. As a driver maintainer X is a painful project, not because of the code (the Xaa driver abstraction is something to hold up to people in software engineering courses as an example) but because of the project structure and lack of delegation. Alan From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:37:33 2003 Received: from postoffice.prismnet.com (209-198-128-18-host.prismnet.net [209.198.128.18]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIbWVr055457 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:37:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frankl@classic-guitar.com) Received: from frank (cs24243193-214.austin.rr.com [24.243.193.214]) by postoffice.prismnet.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIbVBB060393 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:37:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from frankl@classic-guitar.com) From: "Frank LaMonica" To: Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:29:14 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.2 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT_OUTLOOK version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Re: Suggestion for XFree86 Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I'd like to answer a couple of comments to my post: Sven, I agree there is a possibility some people could join XFree86 just for what they my sickly view as "the fun of disrupting the organization", but that fringe element could not gain enough support from the group to effect any important issue that was up for a vote. It doesn't make sense to me to eliminate the opportunity for so many very interested, and very knowledgeable XFree86 users to participate equally in the organization *by their vote* just because a small minority of people who may not be qualified are also allowed to vote. I say *by their vote* because the control of the organization, its policies, its strategic direction, and its procedures and processes would remain with the BOD and with the officers it elects. Giorgiana, If you can restate your comments and remove the venom from your postings, I will take my valuable time to continue a dialog and to answer any serious questions you may have. Otherwise, get out of my face. Frank From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:43:51 2003 Received: from web11302.mail.yahoo.com (web11302.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.205]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KIhpVr026149 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:43:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from agd5f@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030320184351.22356.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.135.61.199] by web11302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:43:51 PST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:43:51 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Deucher Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: <200303201834.h2KIY8919015@magic.shiman.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: on the same topic, making sure the new version of Xv/surfaces/gl textures (Xv is currently network independant) would be nice. HW accelerated indirect rendering for gl. Alex --- Leon Shiman wrote: > georgina writes: > > >>one more thing, I know X primarily deals with video, but some > >>integrations with MAS might be nice for network transparent sound. > >>Plus, if Xfree86 were to integrate it it might be more easily > picked up > >>by distros and other UNIXs so we would have a common audio > interface. > > >>Alex > > >What's MAS? And where can I learn more about it? > > >Georgina > > MAS, a Media Application Server, was developed to support X11's need > for > full audio and media support, which "follows the display variable"; a > > network transparent and platform independent solution. > > MAS has been developed by SAI with the endorsement and approval of > X.Org, > and with partial financial support by X.Org and Sun. It is released > under > the MIT ("X") license. It is in the works as an X Standard. > > MAS has many features which, while fully supporting X11, provide a > new > paradigm for peer to peer network communication. MAS provides > time-management and synchronization for network data transport, > independent > of data type. MAS has immediate application not only as a sound > server, but > for streaming and interactive pluri-modal media and for Accessibility > > support. MAS has already been ported to several platforms. > > The project site URL: http://www.MediaApplicationServer.net. > > Shiman Associates Inc (SAI) is the developer and project maintainer. > > Leon > > Shiman Associates Inc (SAI) > 163 Tappan Street > Brookline MA 02445 USA > > tel: (00)1.617.277.0087 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Forum mailing list > Forum@XFree86.Org > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From postmaster Thu Mar 20 10:46:18 2003 Received: from ebene.inrialpes.fr (ebene.inrialpes.fr [194.199.18.70]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KIkHVr026220 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:46:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from David.Bellot@inria.fr) Received: from imap-serv.inrialpes.fr (imap-serv.inrialpes.fr [194.199.18.72]) by ebene.inrialpes.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2KIk9W27856 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:46:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from inria.fr (pastel.inrialpes.fr [194.199.21.71]) by imap-serv.inrialpes.fr (8.11.6/8.11.3/ImagV2) with ESMTP id h2KIkBd07001 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:46:11 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3E7A0BE1.7040708@inria.fr> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 19:43:45 +0100 From: David Bellot User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030313 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=6.0 tests=SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] X12 ? Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Due to the fact that this list is here for discussing about the future of X, I have a simple question : X12 ? DB -- --------------------------------------------------- David Bellot, PhD SHARP project - INRIA Rhône-Alpes ZIRST - 655 avenue de l'Europe 38330 Montbonnot Saint Martin FRANCE Email : David.Bellot@inria.fr Web : http://www.inrialpes.fr/sharp/people/bellot --------------------------------------------------- From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:06:29 2003 Received: from triton.corp.viaquo.com ([63.192.147.45]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJ6TVr027064 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:06:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmackenzie@viaquo.com) Received: by triton.corp.viaquo.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id <15HM2N90>; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:13:50 -0800 Message-ID: <71D898F533B0D411A7360050DA8B554F3B9892@triton.corp.viaquo.com> From: Jonathan Mackenzie To: "'forum@XFree86.Org'" Subject: RE: [forum] X12 ? Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:13:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by public.xfree86.org id h2KJ6TVr027070 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.9 required=6.0 tests=EXCHANGE_SERVER,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Great idea. We'll definitely get it right next time :-) -----Original Message----- From: David Bellot [mailto:David.Bellot@inria.fr] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:44 AM To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: [forum] X12 ? Due to the fact that this list is here for discussing about the future of X, I have a simple question : X12 ? DB -- --------------------------------------------------- David Bellot, PhD SHARP project - INRIA Rhône-Alpes ZIRST - 655 avenue de l'Europe 38330 Montbonnot Saint Martin FRANCE Email : David.Bellot@inria.fr Web : http://www.inrialpes.fr/sharp/people/bellot --------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Forum mailing list Forum@XFree86.Org http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:10:09 2003 Received: from Cantor.suse.de (ns.suse.de [213.95.15.193]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJA8Vr027221 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:10:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eich@suse.de) Received: from Hermes.suse.de (Hermes.suse.de [213.95.15.136]) by Cantor.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289A9145FD for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:10:08 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15994.5524.683671.406843@xf11.fra.suse.de> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:25:08 +0100 From: Egbert Eich To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 In-Reply-To: alan@redhat.com wrote on Thursday, 20 March 2003 at 13:34:25 -0500 References: <200303201834.h2KIYPT02045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Alan Cox writes: > > This isnt about voting, governance and dictatorship IMHO, its about > change. XFree86 is hard to get involved with usefully, resistant to cool Alan, But why is this so? I cannot share this perception but maybe I'm with the project for too long. I remember I started small (improving a driver as an afernoon project - the driver has long been finished the afternoon still isn't over yet) and worked my way up. The learning curve has been steep and it is even steeper today, but this cannot be the only reason as other projects have steep learning curves, too. Egbert. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:11:38 2003 Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJBcVr027376 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) Received: from phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.21.20]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29833 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:11:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from Sun.COM (almas [129.145.23.120]) by phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id h2KJBb022999 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:11:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E7A1268.8010004@Sun.COM> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:11:36 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Organization: Sun Microsystems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020921 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] X12 ? References: <3E7A0BE1.7040708@inria.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-12.0 required=6.0 tests=NOSPAM_INC,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: David Bellot wrote: > Due to the fact that this list is here for discussing about the future > of X, I have a simple question : > > X12 ? Why? What about X11 is so broken that it can only be fixed by breaking compatibility and can't be fixed via an extension? -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Sun Software Group Quality, Integration, & Customer Success (QICS) Platform Globalization Engin. - X11 Engineering From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:32:49 2003 Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJWnVr017863 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:32:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w5mR-0003gv-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:32:48 -0800 From: "Georgina Economou" To: Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:35:53 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <20030320183106.20248.qmail@web11302.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] RE: [forum]was Future of X ? now CVS Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Now Alex that sounds like real spin issue. So in that theory, just a tag would work also, right Alex? Georgina Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing something else. James Barrie, author of Peter Pan. ***-----Original Message----- ***From: forum-admin@XFree86.Org [mailto:forum-admin@XFree86.Org]On Behalf ***Of Alex Deucher ***Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 1:31 PM ***To: forum@XFree86.Org ***Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? *** *** ***There is the perception that until a release is "official" it's ***unstable no matter how stable CVS code may be. often distros won't ***ship a cvs version of a app even if it is more stable or provides more ***functionality than any relased version simply because it not ***"released." *** *** ***--- georgina o economou wrote: ***> ***> ***> -------Original Message------- ***> ***> From: forum@XFree86.Org ***> Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:55:28 PM ***> To: forum@xfree86.org ***> Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? ***> ***> On Don, 2003-03-20 at 17:29, indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU wrote: ***> > ***> > 1) Many Linux distros (and even more users) are running a less than ***> current ***> > version of Xfree. If more developers are being looked at, tasking ***> some of ***> them ***> > to look after whatever version is the commonly installed version ***> (when it ***> is ***> > not the latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for users and ***> the ***> > perception of Xfree itself. ***> ***> Good idea, I think we could use frequent bugfix releases, in ***> particular ***> now that a bunch of more or less serious problems seem to have crept ***> into 4.3.0. ***> ***> ***> But why not just pull from the CVS? You must know how..... ***> ***> ***> Georgina From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:40:54 2003 Received: from mwinf0604.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJerVr081246 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:40:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0604.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AB52800519 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:40:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w5uA-0001wD-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:40:46 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:40:45 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320194045.GA7325@iliana> References: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <200303201708.48146.nolden@kde.org> <15993.65475.981432.593860@xf11.fra.suse.de> <20030320180622.GB6528@iliana> <15994.2757.971113.930291@xf11.fra.suse.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15994.2757.971113.930291@xf11.fra.suse.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.3 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_05_08, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 07:39:01PM +0100, Egbert Eich wrote: > Sven Luther writes: > > :((( > ??? > > > > > Would you care to explain a bit more about how this would work ? And in > > I have no clear draft yet. So you'd have to wait. Ok, no problem. > > particular why there cannot be a common set of functionalities, where > > chips not supporting them just not implementing them or something such ? > > Sure, there will be a registry where you can register attributes > your driver offers. If another driver wants to offer the same it > should reuse this attribute. > You can query which attributes are offered by a specific driver > and you can query the type and range of its arguments. I personally think it is overkill, a simple tool which would do a standard set of things would be simpler, with newer stuff implemented in newer versions of the tool, and driver not supporting parts of it simply ignoring it. But then, i agree this may not be the X way. For example, i did originally write the glint/pm3 driver to use the alpha channel for masking, but no app used it, and finally Alan rewrote it so that a color key is used, altough you loose one color, thing which would not have happened when using the alpha channel. You may well export as many attributes as you like, the apps need to be handling them all the same, so you have to upgrade the apps to take advantage of it. What is really needed is a good set of standard attributes, or something such. > > Or are there really all that much difference between how a matrox and a > > ati dual head card do it ? > > Possibly not. But I would not rule out that you want to add something > specific for a certain card where you can be pretty sure no other card > will ever offer it. I think it is more a generational thing, any new thing that gets added in by one of the graphic companies will soon be copied by the others. Some years ago matrox did stand apart with dual head, but now everybody provides the same functionality, with different ramdacs and such. Like explained in my mail exchange with Alan, i would like to see complete independant viewport support, possibly with scaling. To have that, you would need to define a framebuffer layout, possibly using RandR to do depth switching and such, and then have a way to attach viewports to them, dynamically. That is, you first attach one viewport/monitor/head to the framebuffer, and can then choose to activate the second head, and have it replicate the whole (or part of) the display for doing a presentation on a video projector for example. You can also have one viewport being a zoomed view of a part of the screen for accesibility reasons and such. I believe such capacity is in all of todays graphic card (it certainly did already exist in the G400). Finally, we could do what Xv really does, it exports a certain number of fixed functionality and adds support for additional attributes that can be queried and such. But again, i don't see what much can be added in this area, apart from more precise zooms, higher frequency ramdacs, and more additional heads (like parhelia's 3 headed solution). Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:41:37 2003 Received: from ns2.tudelft.nl (ns2.tudelft.nl [130.161.180.65]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJfbVr088001 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:41:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msipkema@sipkema-digital.com) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.mailhost1.tudelft.nl by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) id <0HC200C01C1BCC@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:41:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl (lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl [130.161.166.23]) by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) with ESMTP id <0HC2004LKC1BFF@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:41:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from boromir (boromir.lr-s.tudelft.nl [145.94.77.58]) by lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2656.59) id FR8LAM0F; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:41:37 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:41:28 +0100 From: Martijn Sipkema Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... To: forum@XFree86.Org Message-id: <00c001c2ef18$b35941e0$161b14ac@boromir> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=6.0 tests=INVALID_MSGID,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,USER_AGENT_OE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: Martijn Sipkema List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > You're trying to compare apples with oranges. Xft is just a new way of > placing specific glyphs at specific locations on the screen while STSF is a > whole text layout system that computes the location for the glyphs based on > complex information available in modern font formats like OpenType's GSUB > and GPOS tables. Not really. Maybe if Xft is an apple then STSF is an apple and an orange, but there is overlap between the two, right? > STSF is much more comparable with Pango in it's functionality. These are > "text layout engines", and only a few of them have been deployed anywhere. > Because this area of work is so new, I hope we'll see lots of different > ideas explored so that we can get a sense of what things work best. It may > be that in a while we'll all have a general agreement on the basic > operations of the system and may be able to standardize on a single > interface, but I think it's imprudent to just pick one now and hope it all > works out. I agree. But doesn't this also apply to the font rendering, i.e. using Xft with RENDER or using XST? > I will say that I hope STSF can take advantage of what we've learned about > handling fonts entirely on the client side of the wire. Could you provide more information as to why handling fonts on the client side is better? I'd think a font server has some advantages. --ms From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:45:24 2003 Received: from public.xfree86.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJjOVr029539 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:45:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mvojkovi@public.xfree86.org) Received: from localhost (mvojkovi@localhost) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h2KJjOPZ029508 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:45:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mvojkovi@public.xfree86.org) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:45:24 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Vojkovich To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO In-Reply-To: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.6 required=6.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Alan Hourihane wrote: > 4. DGA - do we leave in, or do we shelve it ? > Kill it! Kill it! It's a security hole. It's a difficult corner case to solve in the driver and therefore is frequently broken. And most uses of DGA I've seen are misuses which do not use DGA in the manner that it was intended. We need to fix the Xinput extension to report relative motion though, and soon, so people can get used to using it. I don't want to see Doom III using DGA mouse support. Mark. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:50:36 2003 Received: from mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (smtp5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJoaVr077655 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:50:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D7DA4003B4 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:50:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w63S-0001xk-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:50:22 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:50:21 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] Re: Suggestion for XFree86 Message-ID: <20030320195021.GB7325@iliana> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:29:14PM -0800, Frank LaMonica wrote: > I'd like to answer a couple of comments to my post: > > Sven, > I agree there is a possibility some people could join XFree86 just for what > they my sickly view as "the fun of disrupting the organization", but that Or for other more intentional reasons. > fringe element could not gain enough support from the group to effect any > important issue that was up for a vote. It doesn't make sense to me to Why should it be a fringe elements, imagine huge hords of slashdot readers, with nothing else to do with their time than get involved in huge flamewars, joining xfree86, and because they are numerous get the higher hand with the votes. > eliminate the opportunity for so many very interested, and very > knowledgeable XFree86 users to participate equally in the organization *by > their vote* just because a small minority of people who may not be qualified The thing is, i don't believe it will forever remain a small minority, it could well happen, for intentional reasons or others, that they become the huge majority and that the developpers become the small minority. > are also allowed to vote. I say *by their vote* because the control of the > organization, its policies, its strategic direction, and its procedures and > processes would remain with the BOD and with the officers it elects. Which would be elected by an uncontrolable amount of voters, no ? And that doesn't include an intentional attempt of hostile takeover or something such. Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:54:33 2003 Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJsWVr077766 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM) Received: from phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com ([129.145.21.20]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16345; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:54:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from Sun.COM (almas [129.145.23.120]) by phys-ha1sjc-1.sfbay.sun.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id h2KJsU004563; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:54:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E7A1C76.70107@Sun.COM> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:54:30 -0800 From: Alan Coopersmith Organization: Sun Microsystems User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; SunOS sun4u; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020921 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: forum@XFree86.Org CC: Keith Packard Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-11.3 required=6.0 tests=NOSPAM_INC,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MOZILLA_UA,X_ACCEPT_LANG version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Keith Packard wrote: > Around 14 o'clock on Mar 20, Martijn Sipkema wrote: >>Will XFree86 5.0 use Xft for font rendering or might >>it (also) use Sun's STSF (http://stsf.sf.net)? > > > You're trying to compare apples with oranges. Xft is just a new way of > placing specific glyphs at specific locations on the screen while STSF is a > whole text layout system that computes the location for the glyphs based on > complex information available in modern font formats like OpenType's GSUB > and GPOS tables. Correct. STSF offers a superset of the Xft functionality, and it should be possible, with the changes incorporated in the latest STSF, to write a libXft implementation that sits on top of STSF. > STSF is much more comparable with Pango in it's functionality. These are > "text layout engines", and only a few of them have been deployed anywhere. > Because this area of work is so new, I hope we'll see lots of different > ideas explored so that we can get a sense of what things work best. It may > be that in a while we'll all have a general agreement on the basic > operations of the system and may be able to standardize on a single > interface, but I think it's imprudent to just pick one now and hope it all > works out. There is some experience outside the X world - STSF is based on what we've learned from experience with Java2D TextLayout and Apple's ATSUI. > I will say that I hope STSF can take advantage of what we've learned about > handling fonts entirely on the client side of the wire. The STSF & Xst API's are transparent to which side of the wire the fonts are handled on. We've developed an Xst implementation that works as an X protocol extension handling the fonts on the server side, which works well for us, but we've also got support for handling fonts on the client side as a fallback when the XST extension is not available in the X server. Our current experience is that the server side version offers higher performance and less per-client overhead. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersmith@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Sun Software Group Quality, Integration, & Customer Success (QICS) Platform Globalization Engin. - X11 Engineering From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:55:47 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJtkVr077869 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:55:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alan@redhat.com) Received: (from alan@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KJtkR25672 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:55:46 -0500 From: Alan Cox Message-Id: <200303201955.h2KJtkR25672@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO To: forum@XFree86.Org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:55:46 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Vojkovich" at Mar 20, 2003 02:45:24 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Alan Hourihane wrote: > > > 4. DGA - do we leave in, or do we shelve it ? > > > > It's a security hole. It's a difficult corner case to > solve in the driver and therefore is frequently broken. > And most uses of DGA I've seen are misuses which do not use > DGA in the manner that it was intended. Bits of it are needed for video overlay on hardware without Xv. That doesn't mean it should live only that the facility used for overlay matters. I'd actually prefer to have the X server setting the card up even for that. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 11:59:43 2003 Received: from hemlock.xfree86.org (du14155.wb.ptd.net [204.186.14.155]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KJxgVr077993 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 11:59:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dawes@hemlock.xfree86.org) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by hemlock.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h2KJxf8n051010 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:59:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dawes) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:59:41 -0500 From: David Dawes To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 Message-ID: <20030320145941.A50818@xfree86.org> References: <200303201834.h2KIYPT02045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200303201834.h2KIYPT02045@devserv.devel.redhat.com>; from alan@redhat.com on Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:34:25PM -0500 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-16.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:34:25PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: >> depends on XFree86's continued success. David Dawes has turned to that >> constituency to assist him in resolving this situation. Both of these > >After kicking Keith out. Bad mistake but whats done is done. > >> The ONLY thing XFree86 needs to do to correct this problem is to establish a >> mechanism where any interested person may join XFree86 and be given an equal >> vote to elect a slate of candidates for a governing board of directors whose > >This isnt about voting, governance and dictatorship IMHO, its about >change. XFree86 is hard to get involved with usefully, resistant to cool >ideas and strongly wedded to an occasional not rolling regular release >model. Keith already put a lot of cool stuff in, and had a very free hand in doing so. That he did this isn't tied to him being a core team member. Others do cool stuff to. XFree86 rejects very little of what is submitted. Cool ideas are great. Implementations of those cool ideas are even better. David -- David Dawes Release Engineer/Architect The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:03:15 2003 Received: from web12302.mail.yahoo.com (web12302.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.100]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KK3FVr078171 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:03:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from labandion@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030320200314.20315.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [12.166.76.6] by web12302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:03:14 PST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:03:14 -0800 (PST) From: Labandion To: forum@XFree86.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.7 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_02_03 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Opportunity Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This is open to anyone with an interst right ? ok first i ask not to be dogged for my input feedback is welcome This is the opportunity for xfree to really blosom the general mind set at the moment is xfree has no future, slow ,bulky while xfree is a incredible project all of this is true and while it can be very stable when managed right there is desktop linux varients now and "newbies" will more than often fubar their configuration even in my experience , 90% of my linux crashes have been from xfree complications . People are turning toward such projects as directfb while others still swear by xfree if even frustrated with it I suggest a partnership of the two , to make everyone happy also i suggest an optional "lighter" pre configured for te most part xfree for people who dont need "all" of the xfree power and options. All of you will say xfree is not slow , while it may not be slow and often it may be the wm that causes the seen problems the fact still remains , it is percieved as slow for the slow refreshing of windows and the jerkiness of movement and not to mention true transparency with an xfree/directfb "merge" so to speak it could possibly solve the problems of transparency and fonts i could say so much more but i leave the rest up to the developers bt i'll say this much if you dont do it someone else will , and you all will loose ground Labandion __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:03:20 2003 Received: from mail.scitechsoft.com (adsl-63-195-13-70.dsl.chic01.pacbell.net [63.195.13.70]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KK3KVr078172 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:03:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from KendallB@scitechsoft.com) Received: from KENDALLB (adsl-63-195-13-78.dsl.chic01.pacbell.net [63.195.13.78]) by mail.scitechsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2KK3oPD016185 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:03:50 -0800 From: "Kendall Bennett" Organization: SciTech Software, Inc. To: forum@XFree86.Org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:03:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <3E79ADFC.31081.E413D95@localhost> Priority: normal References: <20030320095725.GA867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.02) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-11.8 required=6.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,NOSPAM_INC,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Mark Vojkovich wrote: > > 4. DGA - do we leave in, or do we shelve it ? > > Kill it! Kill it! > > It's a security hole. It's a difficult corner case to solve in > the driver and therefore is frequently broken. And most uses of DGA > I've seen are misuses which do not use DGA in the manner that it > was intended. If you kill it, make sure you replace it with something that will provide equivalent functionality. Games and applications that wish to use fullscreen graphics under X11 can utilise DGA today, but if you kill it, you lose that ability. DGA is the closest thing that XFree86 has to DirectX, but it could be *way* better. > We need to fix the Xinput extension to report relative > motion though, and soon, so people can get used to using > it. I don't want to see Doom III using DGA mouse support. I agree. IMHO DGA should not support input stuff at all. It should only be related to doing graphics output and input should all be handled through the regular Xinput extension. Regards, --- Kendall Bennett Chief Executive Officer SciTech Software, Inc. Phone: (530) 894 8400 http://www.scitechsoft.com ~ SciTech SNAP - The future of device driver technology! ~ From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:05:10 2003 Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KK5AVr078316 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:05:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackedog@earthlink.net) Received: from 0-1pool172-140.nas5.philadelphia1.pa.us.da.qwest.net ([65.128.172.140] helo=persephone) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18w6Hl-0004aj-00 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:05:09 -0800 From: "Georgina Economou" To: Subject: RE: [forum] Re: Suggestion for XFree86 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:08:15 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <20030320195021.GB7325@iliana> Importance: Normal X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Sven's absolutely dead right on this one. It's what killed X the first time. The X consortium made it whore to whoever paid dues and kept it hostage in their prison. It was 1992 and they still had no PC support. That's rather indefensible and shows what 'vested' interests can do. And when are they gonna get rid of that SI and go XFree86? The 2nd millenium has come and gone, I guess we're waiting for the next? Georgina Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing something else. James Barrie, author of Peter Pan. * *-----Original Message----- * *From: forum-admin@XFree86.Org [mailto:forum-admin@XFree86.Org]On Behalf * *Of Sven Luther * *Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 2:50 PM * *To: forum@xfree86.org * *Subject: Re: [forum] Re: Suggestion for XFree86 * * * * * *On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:29:14PM -0800, Frank LaMonica wrote: * *> I'd like to answer a couple of comments to my post: * *> * *> Sven, * *> I agree there is a possibility some people could join XFree86 * *just for what * *> they my sickly view as "the fun of disrupting the * *organization", but that * * * *Or for other more intentional reasons. * * * *> fringe element could not gain enough support from the group * *to effect any * *> important issue that was up for a vote. It doesn't make * *sense to me to * * * *Why should it be a fringe elements, imagine huge hords of slashdot * *readers, with nothing else to do with their time than get involved in * *huge flamewars, joining xfree86, and because they are numerous get the * *higher hand with the votes. * * * *> eliminate the opportunity for so many very interested, and very * *> knowledgeable XFree86 users to participate equally in the * *organization *by * *> their vote* just because a small minority of people who may * *not be qualified * * * *The thing is, i don't believe it will forever remain a small minority, * *it could well happen, for intentional reasons or others, that they * *become the huge majority and that the developpers become the small * *minority. * * * *> are also allowed to vote. I say *by their vote* because the * *control of the * *> organization, its policies, its strategic direction, and its * *procedures and * *> processes would remain with the BOD and with the officers it elects. * * * *Which would be elected by an uncontrolable amount of voters, no ? * * * *And that doesn't include an intentional attempt of hostile takeover or * *something such. * * * *Friendly, * * * *Sven Luther * *http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:06:15 2003 Received: from web11305.mail.yahoo.com (web11305.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.208]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KK6FVr078395 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:06:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from agd5f@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030320200614.15820.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.135.61.199] by web11305.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:06:14 PST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:06:14 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Deucher Subject: Re: [forum] RE: [forum]was Future of X ? now CVS To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I suppose. Just something to designate it as "stable." it's really up to the distro maintainers. Alex --- Georgina Economou wrote: > Now Alex that sounds like real spin issue. So in that theory, > just a tag would work also, right Alex? > > Georgina > > > Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing something > else. > > James Barrie, author of Peter Pan. > > > > ***-----Original Message----- > ***From: forum-admin@XFree86.Org [mailto:forum-admin@XFree86.Org]On > Behalf > ***Of Alex Deucher > ***Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 1:31 PM > ***To: forum@XFree86.Org > ***Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? > *** > *** > ***There is the perception that until a release is "official" it's > ***unstable no matter how stable CVS code may be. often distros > won't > ***ship a cvs version of a app even if it is more stable or provides > more > ***functionality than any relased version simply because it not > ***"released." > *** > *** > ***--- georgina o economou wrote: > ***> > ***> > ***> -------Original Message------- > ***> > ***> From: forum@XFree86.Org > ***> Date: Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:55:28 PM > ***> To: forum@xfree86.org > ***> Subject: Re: [forum] Future of X ? > ***> > ***> On Don, 2003-03-20 at 17:29, indy@THE-TECH.MIT.EDU wrote: > ***> > > ***> > 1) Many Linux distros (and even more users) are running a less > than > ***> current > ***> > version of Xfree. If more developers are being looked at, > tasking > ***> some of > ***> them > ***> > to look after whatever version is the commonly installed > version > ***> (when it > ***> is > ***> > not the latest and greatest) could be a boon, both for users > and > ***> the > ***> > perception of Xfree itself. > ***> > ***> Good idea, I think we could use frequent bugfix releases, in > ***> particular > ***> now that a bunch of more or less serious problems seem to have > crept > ***> into 4.3.0. > ***> > ***> > ***> But why not just pull from the CVS? You must know how..... > ***> > ***> > ***> Georgina > > _______________________________________________ > Forum mailing list > Forum@XFree86.Org > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:10:55 2003 Received: from lacrosse.corp.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KKAsVr078622 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from otaylor@redhat.com) Received: from landau.devel.redhat.com (landau.devel.redhat.com [172.16.56.103]) by lacrosse.corp.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id h2KKAro08421 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:10:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... From: Owen Taylor To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: <004b01c2ef0d$ee034440$161b14ac@boromir> References: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <3E79F8FB.20605@sun.com> <20030320125907.E16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <004b01c2ef0d$ee034440$161b14ac@boromir> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1048190944.2005.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-0) Date: 20 Mar 2003 15:09:04 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-8.2 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 13:24, Martijn Sipkema wrote: > > > I'll admit we've found some problems with STSF that we've corrected > > > in our current development (yes, the web site is out of date, we're > > > working on an update), but we've found the core design works well for > > > us. What about it do you find to be bad? > > > > GTK+/Qt/GNOME/KDE/Mozilla are all already using fontconfig/Xft for a > > year or more, and they work very well for our needs while remaining > > very simple. fontconfig/Xft were developed in close cooperation with > > the toolkits and major open source desktop projects so it's not > > surprising that they work well for us. > > > > STSF is much more complicated, and the complexity is not solving any > > problem that we have. > > Perhaps it solves problems others may have. And why not comment on the > design problems you said STSF has? > > > Aside from the technical issues, STSF is simply too late. > > I doubt that. > > > fontconfig/Xft have already been adopted by both GTK+ and Qt which are > > the major toolkits, and we aren't interested in having another system. > > There may be others who use X without these toolkits. And there are other > toolkits. Do you speak for these too, assuming you speak for all GTK+ > and QT developers? Well, speaking for GTK+ as a project, I think it's highly unlikely that GTK+ will ever support STSF... not just because Xft and fontconfig are working well for us, but also because STSF's basic architecture seems to be unsuitable for using with Pango. You could probably use STSF as a backend for Pango, but it's always going to be a really, really, slow backend for Pango. (*) I can't really take exception to someone working on STSF ... writing an internationalized text layout engine is a lot of fun, as I know from having done Pango, and I don't want to deny someone that pleasure. Though I'm not sure it's a wise use of the resources involved. (If someone wants a list of a useful stuff that could be done at the FreeType/fontconfig/Xft layers that would benefit everybody, I'd be happy to oblige.) But the primary problem here is not the existence of STSF, but the fact that STSF is (last I checked) _duplicating_ in an incompatible way the font configuration and matching architecture of fontconfig. After many years lacking a good system for installing, locating, and matching fonts, we are finally getting traction behind fontconfig ... Qt, GTK+, Mozilla, gnome-print are just a few of the projects now using fontconfig. fontconfig may not be a perfect solution, but it's quite good, and the free software/ open source community needs to say "this is the solution, where it needs improvement, we'll improve it, and we'll use it everywhere". Regards, Owen (*) Pango needs it's backend to be able to lay out short strings as fast as possible. But every separate string you pass to STSF could be a round trip to the STSF server. And if you dropped the client-server nature of STSF, well, then I can't really see the point of STSF at all. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:12:06 2003 Received: from Cantor.suse.de (ns.suse.de [213.95.15.193]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KKC6Vr081947 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:12:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eich@suse.de) Received: from Hermes.suse.de (Hermes.suse.de [213.95.15.136]) by Cantor.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA8B1461C for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:12:05 +0100 (MET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15994.9240.102195.975533@xf11.fra.suse.de> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:27:04 +0100 From: Egbert Eich To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO In-Reply-To: luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr wrote on Thursday, 20 March 2003 at 20:40:45 +0100 References: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <200303201708.48146.nolden@kde.org> <15993.65475.981432.593860@xf11.fra.suse.de> <20030320180622.GB6528@iliana> <15994.2757.971113.930291@xf11.fra.suse.de> <20030320194045.GA7325@iliana> X-Mailer: VM 7.04 under 21.4 (patch 8) "Honest Recruiter" XEmacs Lucid X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.6 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_05_08 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Sven Luther writes: > > For example, i did originally write the glint/pm3 driver to use the > alpha channel for masking, but no app used it, and finally Alan rewrote > it so that a color key is used, altough you loose one color, thing which > would not have happened when using the alpha channel. You may well > export as many attributes as you like, the apps need to be handling them > all the same, so you have to upgrade the apps to take advantage of it. > This depends. The driver could also provide a short descritive string. An application not knowing the attribute could just display this string. Also knowing the type and range of the attribute's variable it has every information to display a suitable wiget element. I agree that there is still the i18n issue. But if the string cannot be found in a translation table it is better to display an English string in US-ASCII than nothing. > What is really needed is a good set of standard attributes, or something > such. > > > > Or are there really all that much difference between how a matrox and a > > > ati dual head card do it ? > > > > Possibly not. But I would not rule out that you want to add something > > specific for a certain card where you can be pretty sure no other card > > will ever offer it. > > I think it is more a generational thing, any new thing that gets added > in by one of the graphic companies will soon be copied by the others. > Some years ago matrox did stand apart with dual head, but now everybody > provides the same functionality, with different ramdacs and such. > > Like explained in my mail exchange with Alan, i would like to see > complete independant viewport support, possibly with scaling. To have > that, you would need to define a framebuffer layout, possibly using > RandR to do depth switching and such, and then have a way to attach > viewports to them, dynamically. That is, you first attach one > viewport/monitor/head to the framebuffer, and can then choose to > activate the second head, and have it replicate the whole (or part of) > the display for doing a presentation on a video projector for example. > You can also have one viewport being a zoomed view of a part of the > screen for accesibility reasons and such. I believe such capacity is in > all of todays graphic card (it certainly did already exist in the G400). > > Finally, we could do what Xv really does, it exports a certain number of > fixed functionality and adds support for additional attributes that can > be queried and such. > > But again, i don't see what much can be added in this area, apart from > more precise zooms, higher frequency ramdacs, and more additional heads > (like parhelia's 3 headed solution). Yes, but take a look at some of the config options certain drivers have, some of them could be made configurable at runtime, too. I don't only think about video output drivers but also input drivers. So there always may be some attribute you want which doesn't exist. Egbert. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:24:50 2003 Received: from public.xfree86.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KKOoVr051855 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:24:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mvojkovi@public.xfree86.org) Received: from localhost (mvojkovi@localhost) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) with ESMTP id h2KKOoI5051835 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:24:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mvojkovi@public.xfree86.org) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:24:50 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Vojkovich To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO In-Reply-To: <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-8.8 required=6.0 tests=EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, 20 Mar 2003, Sven Luther wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 09:57:25AM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > > Well, > > > > As this forum is for discussing all X stuff, here goes with a few notes > > from an XFree86 Core Team meeting from a little while back. So in the > > spirit of openness I thought I should discuss it here. > > > > This is stuff that we can think of that needs doing for XFree86 5.0, but > > by no means is it limited to this list or even guarantee'ing anything > > on the list will make it for 5.0. > > > > So, to spark discussions, here it is.... > > > > 1. Redesign of XAA, so that multiple depth pixmaps can be stored in offscreen > > memory and the creation of a new directive - called the XAASurface. There > > will undoubtably be driver work involved to port to the new interface. The > > techinical lead on this is Mark Vojkovich. I believe Mark has a substantial > > portion of this done, if not all. > > Mmm, what would be the benefit of this one ? And how is the hardware > side taken care of ? For example with graphic cards that don't have > linear framebuffer, and where the pixmaps need to be converted (either > in software or in hardware) before they are uploaded to the offscreen > cache. Such non-linear memory organisation is sensitive to depth > changes. > > The major problem with the old XAA was that it made too many hardware assumptions. That was necessary to allow XAA to achieve one of its goals, that was, to allow people who didn't know anything about graphics hardware to write drivers. We had fewer professional graphics people writing XFree86 drivers back then so that was an important consideration. This is less important now. In the new XAA, surface allocation is relegated to the driver, which can use any mechanism it wants to allocate these surfaces. I have this working with NVIDIA's binary drivers. Allocations are offloaded to a system-wide allocator in the kernel. The NVIDIA binary drivers use a non-linear framebuffer so this was a good test. Multidepth support is of interest to the render extension (all those 8 bit alpha masks) and in the case of overlays. Mark. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:23:22 2003 Received: from mwinf0602.wanadoo.fr (smtp1.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.25]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KKNMVr032563 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0602.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6425400917 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:23:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w6ZD-00024F-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:23:11 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:23:04 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320202304.GA7803@iliana> References: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <200303201708.48146.nolden@kde.org> <15993.65475.981432.593860@xf11.fra.suse.de> <20030320180622.GB6528@iliana> <15994.2757.971113.930291@xf11.fra.suse.de> <20030320194045.GA7325@iliana> <15994.9240.102195.975533@xf11.fra.suse.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15994.9240.102195.975533@xf11.fra.suse.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.7 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_02_03, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 09:27:04PM +0100, Egbert Eich wrote: > Sven Luther writes: > > > > For example, i did originally write the glint/pm3 driver to use the > > alpha channel for masking, but no app used it, and finally Alan rewrote > > it so that a color key is used, altough you loose one color, thing which > > would not have happened when using the alpha channel. You may well > > export as many attributes as you like, the apps need to be handling them > > all the same, so you have to upgrade the apps to take advantage of it. > > > This depends. The driver could also provide a short descritive string. > An application not knowing the attribute could just display this > string. Also knowing the type and range of the attribute's variable > it has every information to display a suitable wiget element. > I agree that there is still the i18n issue. But if the string > cannot be found in a translation table it is better to display > an English string in US-ASCII than nothing. This would only work if there was some kind of standardization, i am sure that many drivers have different options for the exact same thing. Just being able to extend it is not enough, and if no app support it, then there is no use implementing it. > > Finally, we could do what Xv really does, it exports a certain number of > > fixed functionality and adds support for additional attributes that can > > be queried and such. > > > > But again, i don't see what much can be added in this area, apart from > > more precise zooms, higher frequency ramdacs, and more additional heads > > (like parhelia's 3 headed solution). > > Yes, but take a look at some of the config options certain drivers > have, some of them could be made configurable at runtime, too. Yes, almost all of them in fact, but again, all drivers need to use the same set of keywords, and apps need to actually use it. > I don't only think about video output drivers but also input drivers. > So there always may be some attribute you want which doesn't exist. Mmm, actually we are maybe speaking about two different things. I think your work is only to pass the attributes to the drivers from the app, but i was more thinking about a set of functionality that the drivers provide. For example, i don't think you can implement the windows zooming thingy with what you propose. that his, have one viewport/monitor be a zoomed version of a window, even if we move or resize the window. Friendly, Sven Luther > > Egbert. > _______________________________________________ > Forum mailing list > Forum@XFree86.Org > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:23:39 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KKNcVr039512 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:23:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hp@redhat.com) Received: (from hp@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KKNbG03546 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:23:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:23:37 -0500 From: Havoc Pennington To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... Message-ID: <20030320152337.H16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <3E79F8FB.20605@sun.com> <20030320125907.E16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <004b01c2ef0d$ee034440$161b14ac@boromir> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <004b01c2ef0d$ee034440$161b14ac@boromir> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.1 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 07:24:22PM +0100, Martijn Sipkema wrote: > > GTK+/Qt/GNOME/KDE/Mozilla are all already using fontconfig/Xft for a > > year or more, and they work very well for our needs while remaining > > very simple. fontconfig/Xft were developed in close cooperation with > > the toolkits and major open source desktop projects so it's not > > surprising that they work well for us. > > > > STSF is much more complicated, and the complexity is not solving any > > problem that we have. > > Perhaps it solves problems others may have. And why not comment on the > design problems you said STSF has? If you aren't solving a problem that any of the main toolkits or desktop environments/apps have, if fontconfig/Xft are empirically deployed and work, and if we've already done the work to integrate them, the burden of proof that we need to change is really on STSF advocates. GNOME 2.2 already has fontconfig/Xft as a hard requirement, and GTK 2.4 is planned to as well. KDE is making the shift also. Mozilla already has. fontconfig/Xft are deployed. The question is not what to deploy but whether we should undo a lot of existing deployment and start over. And convincing people to do that will not be easy; it will require compelling rationale. Are GTK/Qt/Mozilla the whole world? No, but they are an awfully large part of the world that's relevant here. The design problem with STSF can be summarized very concisely: existing infrastructure does the job with much less complexity. Thus at least most of the extra complexity in STSF doesn't make sense. It may be interesting to do a Pango-level library based on fontconfig/Xft that would be shared by multiple toolkits; but it needs to build on fontconfig/Xft, not replace them. It also needs to be developed in consulation with the toolkit and desktop developers, or it won't be right for them. The reason fontconfig/Xft were rapidly adopted is because the design was based on consultation with toolkit and desktop developers, and thus met our needs. Our #1, overriding, above-all-else need is to have a single font configuration system that spans X11, printing, and so on. fontconfig is such a system. So we're going to be very reluctant to give it up. > > Aside from the technical issues, STSF is simply too late. > > I doubt that. > > > fontconfig/Xft have already been adopted by both GTK+ and Qt which are > > the major toolkits, and we aren't interested in having another system. > > There may be others who use X without these toolkits. And there are other > toolkits. Do you speak for these too, assuming you speak for all GTK+ > and QT developers? I don't claim to speak for anyone, I'm just telling you my impression from the contacts and information that I have. You are free to ask anyone directly. By all means, I encourage you to disregard what I have to say and make your own evaluation. Havoc From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:27:56 2003 Received: from sunfire.lclark.edu (lclark.edu [149.175.1.5]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KKRuVs077778 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:27:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eta@lclark.edu) Received: from [149.175.30.191] ([149.175.30.191]) by sunfire.lclark.edu (SAVSMTP 3.0.1.45) with SMTP id M2003032012275017816 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:27:50 -0800 Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 From: Eric Anholt To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: <20030320145941.A50818@xfree86.org> References: <200303201834.h2KIYPT02045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20030320145941.A50818@xfree86.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1048192318.617.25.camel@leguin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 20 Mar 2003 12:31:58 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-10.8 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 11:59, David Dawes wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:34:25PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > >> depends on XFree86's continued success. David Dawes has turned to that > >> constituency to assist him in resolving this situation. Both of these > > > >After kicking Keith out. Bad mistake but whats done is done. > > > >> The ONLY thing XFree86 needs to do to correct this problem is to establish a > >> mechanism where any interested person may join XFree86 and be given an equal > >> vote to elect a slate of candidates for a governing board of directors whose > > > >This isnt about voting, governance and dictatorship IMHO, its about > >change. XFree86 is hard to get involved with usefully, resistant to cool > >ideas and strongly wedded to an occasional not rolling regular release > >model. > > Keith already put a lot of cool stuff in, and had a very free hand in > doing so. That he did this isn't tied to him being a core team member. > Others do cool stuff to. XFree86 rejects very little of what is submitted. What exactly is Keith's status as a committer? I had the impression from talking to others that he was no longer able to commit to XFree86. -- Eric Anholt eta@lclark.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~anholt/ anholt@FreeBSD.org From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:30:03 2003 Received: from mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KKU2Vr000659 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0502.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A71E8008F6 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:29:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w6fj-00026T-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:29:55 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:29:55 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320202955.GA8035@iliana> References: <20030320114146.GA1375@iliana> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.9 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 03:24:50PM -0500, Mark Vojkovich wrote: > The major problem with the old XAA was that it made too many > hardware assumptions. That was necessary to allow XAA to achieve > one of its goals, that was, to allow people who didn't know anything > about graphics hardware to write drivers. We had fewer professional > graphics people writing XFree86 drivers back then so that was an > important consideration. This is less important now. Mmm, > In the new XAA, surface allocation is relegated to the driver, > which can use any mechanism it wants to allocate these surfaces. But will it not mean less code sharing if each driver has to do memory management ? > I have this working with NVIDIA's binary drivers. Allocations > are offloaded to a system-wide allocator in the kernel. The NVIDIA In the drm driver, or somewhere else ? And how is this related to Ian's DRI memeory manager plans ? > binary drivers use a non-linear framebuffer so this was a good > test. What kind of non-linear framebuffer is used (if you are allowed to tell that is) and do you use a automated conversion unit or something such ? > Multidepth support is of interest to the render extension (all > those 8 bit alpha masks) and in the case of overlays. Ok, ... Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:43:32 2003 Received: from mwinf0203.wanadoo.fr (smtp5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KKhWVr028826 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:43:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0203.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A1FA1000466 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:43:24 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w6sl-00029f-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:43:23 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:43:22 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320204322.GA8277@iliana> References: <20030320152001.78921.qmail@web11301.mail.yahoo.com> <200303201708.48146.nolden@kde.org> <15993.65475.981432.593860@xf11.fra.suse.de> <20030320180622.GB6528@iliana> <15994.2757.971113.930291@xf11.fra.suse.de> <20030320194045.GA7325@iliana> <15994.9240.102195.975533@xf11.fra.suse.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15994.9240.102195.975533@xf11.fra.suse.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.1 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 09:27:04PM +0100, Egbert Eich wrote: > Sven Luther writes: > > > > For example, i did originally write the glint/pm3 driver to use the > > alpha channel for masking, but no app used it, and finally Alan rewrote > > it so that a color key is used, altough you loose one color, thing which > > would not have happened when using the alpha channel. You may well > > export as many attributes as you like, the apps need to be handling them > > all the same, so you have to upgrade the apps to take advantage of it. > > > This depends. The driver could also provide a short descritive string. > An application not knowing the attribute could just display this > string. Also knowing the type and range of the attribute's variable > it has every information to display a suitable wiget element. > I agree that there is still the i18n issue. But if the string > cannot be found in a translation table it is better to display > an English string in US-ASCII than nothing. BTW, how would these attributes be compatible with the config file option ? Could it be possible to set them in the config file, or is it unecessary as 5.0 will have no control file whatsoever and this is going to replace it ? Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 12:59:21 2003 Received: from crossbow.dyndns.org (syr-24-58-3-89.twcny.rr.com [24.58.3.89]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KKxLVr029424 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 12:59:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@crossbow.dyndns.org) Received: from crossbow.dyndns.org (crossbow.dyndns.org [127.0.0.1]) by crossbow.dyndns.org (8.12.8/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h2KFBx2D005226 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:11:59 -0500 Received: (from john@localhost) by crossbow.dyndns.org (8.12.8/8.12.5/Submit) id h2KFBwVU005224 for forum@xfree86.org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:11:58 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:11:58 -0500 From: John To: forum@xfree86.org Message-ID: <20030320151158.GA5214@crossbow.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.3 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_01_02,USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Technical suggestion: Separate /usr/X11R6 Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: jsk29@cornell.edu List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi everyone, I've been meaning to suggest this post-4.3 and pre-5.0, so I guess it's time. You even made a convenient list for me to make the suggestion on, so thank you! :) I don't know if this has been discussed much already, but I haven't been able to find the discussion personally. Sorry if it's a FAQ. :) Please consider breaking up the contents into /usr/X11R6. Since the X servers were unified when the modular drivers were implemented, the contents of /usr/X11R6 have simplified. They are clean enough now to make the switch. I think that /usr/X11R6/bin/X should simply be /usr/bin/X, for instance. Connected to this, I think that the core binaries (xterm, etc) should be packaged separately. When I use CVS or download a release, I should be able to bring down just the server and dependancies. I think that will significantly ease the entry barrier for new developers, since they will know where the important code is. Also, make sure that it is easy for people to build and install multiple X servers (/usr/local/opt/XFree86-cvs-teusday/ and /usr/local/opt/XFree86-cvs-wednesday/, for instance.) I've built multiple Xservers myself, but a simple build and installation process will greatly simplify the life of people experimenting with the code for the first time. (People don't really want to clobber or move /usr/X11R6. :) Anyway, if this is old hat I appologize. It seems like a convenient time to make these changes, so I thought I should bring them up. Later, John From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:10:52 2003 Received: from public.xfree86.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLAqVr029867 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dawes@public.xfree86.org) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h2KLAqhH029866 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:10:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dawes) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:10:52 -0500 From: David Dawes To: forum@XFree86.Org Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 Message-ID: <20030320161052.B79762@xfree86.org> References: <200303201834.h2KIYPT02045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20030320145941.A50818@xfree86.org> <1048192318.617.25.camel@leguin> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <1048192318.617.25.camel@leguin>; from eta@lclark.edu on Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:31:58PM -0800 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-16.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:31:58PM -0800, Eric Anholt wrote: >On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 11:59, David Dawes wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:34:25PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: >> >> depends on XFree86's continued success. David Dawes has turned to that >> >> constituency to assist him in resolving this situation. Both of these >> > >> >After kicking Keith out. Bad mistake but whats done is done. >> > >> >> The ONLY thing XFree86 needs to do to correct this problem is to establish a >> >> mechanism where any interested person may join XFree86 and be given an equal >> >> vote to elect a slate of candidates for a governing board of directors whose >> > >> >This isnt about voting, governance and dictatorship IMHO, its about >> >change. XFree86 is hard to get involved with usefully, resistant to cool >> >ideas and strongly wedded to an occasional not rolling regular release >> >model. >> >> Keith already put a lot of cool stuff in, and had a very free hand in >> doing so. That he did this isn't tied to him being a core team member. >> Others do cool stuff to. XFree86 rejects very little of what is submitted. > >What exactly is Keith's status as a committer? I had the impression >from talking to others that he was no longer able to commit to XFree86. Yes, that is correct, and that has been true since he abused his commit privilege by committing XFIXES on the eve of the 4.3 freeze without any prior discussion about it. It didn't prevent him from continuing to contribute to the 4.3 release after that point, as can be seen from the CHANGELOG. David -- David Dawes Release Engineer/Architect The XFree86 Project www.XFree86.org/~dawes From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:32:29 2003 Received: from fdd.com (fdd.com [64.81.147.80]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLWSVr001513 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:32:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vektor@fdd.com) Received: from fdd.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by fdd.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h2KLWSpI019963 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:32:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from vektor@localhost) by fdd.com (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id h2KLWSST012326 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:32:28 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:32:28 -0600 From: Billy Biggs To: forum@XFree86.Org Message-ID: <20030320213228.GX21136@dumbterm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.2 required=6.0 tests=SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT, USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Driver development vs X development Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I would like to see better handling of adding new drivers and bugfixing existing drivers. It's unclear to me whether it would be better to try and split driver and server development more, or release more often, but I think many of the benefits of a modular server architecture are lost when we see users not getting bugfixes for drivers until the next major release. I was quite disturbed by this recent thread: http://www.mail-archive.com/devel%40xfree86.org/msg00846.html Also, there are many driver bugfixes and experimental driver development that take a long time to get into the X distribution. If there is an experimental branch of a driver, why not ship both? http://www.winischhofer.net/linuxsis630.shtml http://gatos.sourceforge.net/ One final note about drivers, video projects (such as xine, mplayer, avifile) are doing their own driver architectures, partly because of the slow X development cycles (see vidix/*_vid/...). Maybe having driver code more independent of X development would be enough to see some of this advanced and experimental driver code be shared with code intended for use inside the X server. -- Billy Biggs vektor@dumbterm.net From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:33:41 2003 Received: from mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (smtp5.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.29]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLXeVr012162 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:33:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0202.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3946BA400700 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:33:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w7fJ-0002H6-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:33:33 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:33:32 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] Technical suggestion: Separate /usr/X11R6 Message-ID: <20030320213332.GA8716@iliana> References: <20030320151158.GA5214@crossbow.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030320151158.GA5214@crossbow.dyndns.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-14.1 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 10:11:58AM -0500, John wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I've been meaning to suggest this post-4.3 and pre-5.0, so I > guess it's time. You even made a convenient list for me to > make the suggestion on, so thank you! :) > > I don't know if this has been discussed much already, but I > haven't been able to find the discussion personally. Sorry > if it's a FAQ. :) > > Please consider breaking up the contents into /usr/X11R6. Since > the X servers were unified when the modular drivers were implemented, > the contents of /usr/X11R6 have simplified. They are clean enough > now to make the switch. > > I think that /usr/X11R6/bin/X should simply be /usr/bin/X, for > instance. > > Connected to this, I think that the core binaries (xterm, etc) should > be packaged separately. When I use CVS or download a release, I should > be able to bring down just the server and dependancies. I think that > will significantly ease the entry barrier for new developers, since they > will know where the important code is. Once they know it is in xc/programs/Xserver and xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86, the barrier is somewhta lessened, i think. > Also, make sure that it is easy for people to build and install > multiple X servers (/usr/local/opt/XFree86-cvs-teusday/ and > /usr/local/opt/XFree86-cvs-wednesday/, for instance.) I've built > multiple Xservers myself, but a simple build and installation > process will greatly simplify the life of people experimenting > with the code for the first time. (People don't really want to > clobber or move /usr/X11R6. :) Just changing the ProjectRoot in xc/cf/config/site.def should be enough, with maybe Also the doon't_build_outside_projectroot variable that comes below it. I have done a patch for this myself so i just apply it and can build without problem. I think a propper shell script could even set the projectroot to the current date or something once you build. Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:37:26 2003 Received: from sunfire.lclark.edu (sunfire.lclark.edu [149.175.1.5]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KLbPVs073247 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:37:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eta@lclark.edu) Received: from [149.175.30.191] ([149.175.30.191]) by sunfire.lclark.edu (SAVSMTP 3.0.1.45) with SMTP id M2003032013371926540 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:37:19 -0800 From: Eric Anholt To: forum@xfree86.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1048196488.617.146.camel@leguin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 20 Mar 2003 13:41:28 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.0 required=6.0 tests=SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Community government, new developers, release cycle Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: The most basic problems I see with the XFree86 project are the lack of community government, resistance to new developers, and a slow release cycle. The slow release cycle is a straightforward problem. Distributions (FreeBSD for example) end up shipping the year-old X releases and lacking support for significant new hardware. We have the option of backporting drivers, of course, but then that work would be duplicated across many distributions, and most of us don't have the time and often the hardware and experience necessary to do it. The solution I think would be optimal is running development in two branches, one being HEAD, which would be targeted now at XFree86 5.0, and a stable branch, which would continue releasing 4.x and backporting tested fixes and updates until it's been acceptably replaced by 5.x. Yes, this would require more work by the committers, but that could be alleviated by allowing more committers. Community government: I was able to find BOD bylaws through google cache, but nothing about core. I know exactly one member of BOD, and 6 out of 15 of core. None are elected, that I know of. What decisions that are made are done in private and little is known of how they came about. I think FreeBSD core handles this well: They conduct discussions in private, but release monthly minutes to the developers of the key points of discussions and the votes that occurred, minus anything that was explicitly requested to be private. The nine members are elected every two years by the developers (anyone with cvs access, currently somewhere around 330 I think). If there is going to be a core/BOD team running XFree86, I think they should be elected by those who have a stake in developing XFree86 (current committers, driver maintainers, contributors, distro maintainers, DRI developers, GATOS developers, ???). Resistance to new new developers (in terms of access to CVS): I think this is the primary problem most people see with the project as it currently exists. It has resulted in the forks, including GATOS and DRI, which make it difficult to track new development of XFree86. I don't see this being solved until there is community government of the project, though. -- Eric Anholt eta@lclark.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~anholt/ anholt@FreeBSD.org From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:43:24 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLhOVr079953 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:43:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alan@redhat.com) Received: (from alan@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KLhNG28316 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:43:23 -0500 From: Alan Cox Message-Id: <200303202143.h2KLhNG28316@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 To: forum@XFree86.Org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:43:23 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <15994.5524.683671.406843@xf11.fra.suse.de> from "Egbert Eich" at Mar 20, 2003 08:25:08 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.5 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > I remember I started small (improving a driver as an afernoon > project - the driver has long been finished the afternoon still > isn't over yet) and worked my way up. > The learning curve has been steep and it is even steeper today, > but this cannot be the only reason as other projects have steep > learning curves, too. The learning curve is not the problem, not with XFree 4.x. It took me two days to learn enough to fix the cyrix driver, and a day to learn to write input drivers. Its things like direct CVS access, preparedness for people to break stuff, rolling regular releases that concern me. The technical problem for core drivers was solved in XFree 4.0 From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:48:21 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLmLVr080121 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:48:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alan@redhat.com) Received: (from alan@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KLmKx29808 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:48:20 -0500 From: Alan Cox Message-Id: <200303202148.h2KLmKx29808@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO To: forum@XFree86.Org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:48:20 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20030320202955.GA8035@iliana> from "Sven Luther" at Mar 20, 2003 09:29:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > > In the new XAA, surface allocation is relegated to the driver, > > which can use any mechanism it wants to allocate these surfaces. > > But will it not mean less code sharing if each driver has to do memory > management ? I'd agree with the original comments here. In the kernel we've been moving away from core code making the assumptions. It makes a mess. Instead you need library code. If there is a library for "generic" surface allocation you can just plug into, then the code is normally shared but you can override things. Think C++ virtual methods, then program them in a sane language ;) > What kind of non-linear framebuffer is used (if you are allowed to tell > that is) and do you use a automated conversion unit or something such ? A documented example is the i8xx where frame buffers are pulled from main memory via the AGP gart and scatter gather. From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:48:32 2003 Received: from ns2.tudelft.nl (ns2.tudelft.nl [130.161.180.65]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLmVVr080146 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:48:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msipkema@sipkema-digital.com) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.mailhost1.tudelft.nl by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) id <0HC200A01HWTVQ@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:48:30 +0100 (MET) Received: from lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl (lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl [130.161.166.23]) by mailhost1.tudelft.nl (PMDF V6.1-1 #40924) with ESMTP id <0HC200A23HWTH4@mailhost1.tudelft.nl> for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:48:29 +0100 (MET) Received: from boromir (boromir.lr-s.tudelft.nl [145.94.77.58]) by lr0nt3.lr.tudelft.nl with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2656.59) id FR8LANKC; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:48:31 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:48:22 +0100 From: Martijn Sipkema Subject: Re: [forum] some XFree86 5.0 questions... To: forum@XFree86.Org Message-id: <007a01c2ef2a$6dfdce10$161b14ac@boromir> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <001801c2eee6$77f8fb90$161b14ac@boromir> <20030320121124.B16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <3E79F8FB.20605@sun.com> <20030320125907.E16216@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <004b01c2ef0d$ee034440$161b14ac@boromir> <1048190944.2005.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.7 required=6.0 tests=INVALID_MSGID,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,USER_AGENT_OE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org X-Reply-To: Martijn Sipkema List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: [...] > Well, speaking for GTK+ as a project, I think it's highly unlikely > that GTK+ will ever support STSF... not just because Xft and > fontconfig are working well for us, but also because STSF's basic > architecture seems to be unsuitable for using with Pango. > You could probably use STSF as a backend for Pango, but it's always > going to be a really, really, slow backend for Pango. (*) [...] > (*) Pango needs it's backend to be able to lay out short strings > as fast as possible. But every separate string you pass to > STSF could be a round trip to the STSF server. And if > you dropped the client-server nature of STSF, well, then > I can't really see the point of STSF at all. To be honest, this really is not my area of expertise, but I felt a font server was the better approach. It seems this may have performance issues. Are there any papers you know of on this issue? --ms From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:52:32 2003 Received: from devserv.devel.redhat.com (nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com [66.187.233.200]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLqVVr080317 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:52:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alan@redhat.com) Received: (from alan@localhost) by devserv.devel.redhat.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id h2KLqVO30942 for forum@XFree86.Org; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:52:31 -0500 From: Alan Cox Message-Id: <200303202152.h2KLqVO30942@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Subject: Re: [forum] Opportunity To: forum@XFree86.Org Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:52:30 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <20030320200314.20315.qmail@web12302.mail.yahoo.com> from "Labandion" at Mar 20, 2003 12:03:14 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.5 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: > with an xfree/directfb "merge" so to speak > it could possibly solve the problems of transparency and fonts > i could say so much more > but i leave the rest up to the developers I would personally love to see an X11 backend for directfb, so I get X11 apps, including new features and so I can run local only stuff at rocket speed - but someone has to actually go write it. Ideas are cheap Alan From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:54:28 2003 Received: from mwinf0504.wanadoo.fr (smtp2.wanadoo.fr [193.252.22.26]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLsRVr080402 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:54:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from luther@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr) Received: from iliana (AStrasbourg-206-1-27-62.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.51.32.62]) by mwinf0504.wanadoo.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F4F100015B for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:54:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from luther by iliana with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w7zQ-0002LM-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:54:20 +0100 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 22:54:19 +0100 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] XFree86 5.0 TODO Message-ID: <20030320215419.GA8923@iliana> References: <20030320202955.GA8035@iliana> <200303202148.h2KLmKx29808@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200303202148.h2KLmKx29808@devserv.devel.redhat.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i From: Sven Luther X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.9 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 04:48:20PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > > > In the new XAA, surface allocation is relegated to the driver, > > > which can use any mechanism it wants to allocate these surfaces. > > > > But will it not mean less code sharing if each driver has to do memory > > management ? > > I'd agree with the original comments here. In the kernel we've been > moving away from core code making the assumptions. It makes a mess. Instead > you need library code. > > If there is a library for "generic" surface allocation you can just plug > into, then the code is normally shared but you can override things. Think > C++ virtual methods, then program them in a sane language ;) Yes, that would be ok. > > What kind of non-linear framebuffer is used (if you are allowed to tell > > that is) and do you use a automated conversion unit or something such ? > > A documented example is the i8xx where frame buffers are pulled from > main memory via the AGP gart and scatter gather. Mmm, but here, the depth has no influence on the non-linear framebuffer, it doesn't really is a non-linear framebuffer, just a framebuffer where not all the memory is directly available ? It still has a linear addressing space ? Or maybe i am just misunderstanding things ? Friendly, Sven Luther From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:53:11 2003 Received: from smtp013.mail.yahoo.com (smtp013.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.57]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KLrBVr080348 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:53:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrfonseca@tungstengraphics.com) Received: from pc2-cwma1-6-cust168.swan.cable.ntl.com (HELO localhost.localdomain) (j?r?fonseca@81.101.208.168 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Mar 2003 21:53:10 -0000 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:53:22 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-15?Q?Jos=E9?= Fonseca To: forum@XFree86.Org Cc: dri-devel Message-ID: <20030320215322.GA14585@localhost.localdomain> References: <20030320001031.B7189@xfree86.org> <3E79A7FE.4070100@yahoo.com> <20030320144821.GH867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20030320144821.GH867@fairlite.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-13.4 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01, USER_AGENT,USER_AGENT_MUTT version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] Re: Invitation for public discussion about the future of X Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 02:48:21PM +0000, Alan Hourihane wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 11:37:34 +0000, Keith Whitwell wrote: > > - Extend CVS access to regular contributors. Use scripts or > > whatever to control access to subtrees if you want. > > This comes up from time to time, and I'm sure will get discussed even more. > I know there have been offers to others for CVS commit access, and some > have refused and some have accepted. The consensus of who gets commit > access has always been - if they show competance at sending patches in, > then after a period of time, no doubt they'll get it. It's the same as > the DRI, but with more of a prolonged period of evaluating that persons > patches. I guess this 'prolonged' period, is the stickling point for most. Why not simply have a second CVS repository, where most development would take place under, while the current repository would be the one used for (pre-/post-) releases with coarse-grain commits. Like stable and development branches, but with the branches being on different repositories. This could give an effective answer to people desires: - CVS write access of the 2nd repository could be given to more people, with less - The core developers would retain full control over the releases - Patches could be commited faster and could be tested more effectively. Less burden on the core developers as patch would already been tested by a regular developer and verified by users until a decision to include on the 1st repository has to be made. - Nightly builds of the 2nd repository could be made available so that users could test the lastest fixes and/or new features. It seems a more scalable and open development model without damage for the existing rights. At least it would be a step forward from the current deteriorating situation. José Fonseca From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:53:31 2003 Received: from scream.east.isi.edu (mail@scream.east.isi.edu [65.114.169.27]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLrVVr080364 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:53:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cworth@east.isi.edu) Received: from cworth by scream.east.isi.edu with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 18w7yc-0006da-00 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:53:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15994.14376.753360.848127@scream.east.isi.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:52:40 -0500 To: forum@xfree86.org Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under Emacs 21.2.2 From: Carl Worth X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.3 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Mar 20, Frank LaMonica wrote: > The ONLY thing XFree86 needs to do to correct this problem is to establish a > mechanism where any interested person may join XFree86 and be given an equal > vote to elect a slate of candidates for a governing board of directors whose > tenure is fixed to some reasonable duration. This seems like a very reasonable proposal. The notion of a general membership that elects a governing board is obviously typical of many successful organizations. As suggested in a previous thread, a mechanism would also need to be instrumented for determining who qualifies as a general member of XFree86. And of course, all of these mechanisms should be carefully specified in documents (constitution, by-laws, whatever) that are available to be examined by potential members of the organization. Certainly, other comparably large open source software development groups must have Speaking of which, what are the current policies for XFree86? How is membership of the BOD determined? the core team? general project membership? I can't find any information about this on the xfree86.org web pages. I've seen many requests on the xfree86.org mailing lists rejected with phrases such as "that's a good idea, but it takes work, and all of the current developers are busy working on other things". For such cases, it seems the only solution is to acquire more developers for the project. But in my experience, the barriers to entry for xfree86 membership are too great, and the project seems to discourage new developers from joining. The largest barrier seems to me that membership rights and responsibilities are not defined, (at least not publicly), nor is the process for obtaining membership. -Carl PS. Here's a (somewhat rambling) description of some of the specific barriers of entry to XFree86 that I've seen, demonstrated by personal experience: 1) The main xfree86.org web page links to no information about joining the project, (that I can find anyway). 2) There is a web-page (http://www.xfree86.org/developer.html), that says, How to Become an XFree86 Developer Get and build the latest XFree86 code from the CVS repository, and subscribe to the XFree86 developer list (see above). In my experience, I've done these since about August 2001, but clearly that's not enough to get on the project. 3) From some mailing list traffic, I've seen that having some code accepted is a prerequisite to membership. OK, I've got about 1000 lines of code in the server, (since about June 2002) implementing the trapezoid geometric primitive for the RENDER extension. I only got that code committed because I was lucky enough to have volunteered to write some code needed by a member of the core team, (Keith Packard) who committed it for me. Obviously, I can't use that route to maintain my code anymore. So what can I do to continue to maintain the code I wrote? Send patches and pray? I've seen enough examples of this process failing that I'm not even willing to try it (see above about how current developers are all too busy). It's an inherently unscalable process if the group of developers cannot grow. So, can I become a member of XFree86? Have I fulfilled all the prerequisites for membership? (I honestly don't know). What would I do next to request membership? (again, I honestly don't know what the process is supposed to be -- I haven't found any explanation). And finally, do I want to join XFree86? I don't know. I'd have to be able to find out what rights and responsibilities come with membership before I ask to join. -Carl -- Carl Worth USC Information Sciences Institute cworth@isi.edu From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:53:42 2003 Received: from web11308.mail.yahoo.com (web11308.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.131.211]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KLrgVr080386 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from agd5f@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20030320215342.3389.qmail@web11308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [146.135.61.199] by web11308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:53:42 PST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:53:42 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Deucher Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: <200303202143.h2KLhNG28316@devserv.devel.redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SPAM_PHRASE_01_02 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I agree. It seems daunting at first, but once you get into it, it's not so bad at all (drivers anyway, i haven't looked at ther rest of X). BTW, for those new to Xfree development, the CALLMAP in the s3v directory is also helpful in conjunction with the DESIGN document. Now if I just had savage databooks... Alex http://www.botchco.com/alex/new-savage/html/ --- Alan Cox wrote: > > I remember I started small (improving a driver as an afernoon > > project - the driver has long been finished the afternoon still > > isn't over yet) and worked my way up. > > The learning curve has been steep and it is even steeper today, > > but this cannot be the only reason as other projects have steep > > learning curves, too. > > The learning curve is not the problem, not with XFree 4.x. It took > me two days to learn enough to fix the cyrix driver, and a day > to learn to write input drivers. > > Its things like direct CVS access, preparedness for people to break > stuff, rolling regular releases that concern me. > > The technical problem for core drivers was solved in XFree 4.0 > _______________________________________________ > Forum mailing list > Forum@XFree86.Org > http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/forum __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:59:17 2003 Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h2KLxHVr080641 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:59:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scottb.lists@verizon.net) Received: from lsanca2-ar26-4-46-132-150.lsanca2.dsl-verizon.net ([4.46.132.150]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.27 201-253-122-126-127-20021220) with ESMTP id <20030320215911.OYGG4892.out006.verizon.net@lsanca2-ar26-4-46-132-150.lsanca2.dsl-verizon.net> for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:59:11 -0600 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:59:16 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Brumbaugh X-X-Sender: dfb@localhost.localdomain To: XFree Forum Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Info: Submitted using SMTP AUTH at out006.verizon.net from [4.46.132.150] at Thu, 20 Mar 2003 15:59:11 -0600 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.5 required=6.0 tests=SPAM_PHRASE_02_03,USER_AGENT_PINE version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [forum] X-Transparency Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Hi, I saw that window translucency is on the X 5.0 TODO list so I thought I would post this message for anyone who is interested in this particular topic. A few months ago I used XDirectFB to develop an experimental X protocol extension called X-Transparency. This extension allows any xclient to control the opacity of its or any other x client's top level x window. The extension is general and requires that an Xserver provide callbacks to the protocol to control a top-level window's transparency. With XDirectFB these callbacks are simple wrappers around the corresponding DirectFB api calls. The X-Transparency API is pretty simple, you use XSetOpacity( dpy, win, value ); to change a windows opacity, and XGetOpacity( dpy, win, &value ); to get it. The extension is available in the directfb cvs under XDirectFB/xc-transparency-extension.diff More recently, I have patched the Sawfish window manager to use this extension. With this patched Sawfish, a user can continuously vary window transparency by ctrl-mouse dragging on the title bar of any x window. I picked Sawfish for this prototype because it was relatively easy to write librep wrappers around the XGet/XSetOpacity calls. After that it was also easy to write lisp functions to change window transparency and bind these to mouse events. Here is a pointer to the original X-Transparency extension patch which is obsoleted by the current xdirectfb cvs: http://directfb.org/mailinglists/directfb-dev/2002/12-2002/msg00136.html Here is a pointer to the latest Sawfish patch, this patch is not in cvs: http://directfb.org/mailinglists/directfb-dev/2003/03-2003/msg00133.html Scott Brumbaugh From postmaster Thu Mar 20 13:58:14 2003 Received: from sunfire.lclark.edu (sunfire.lclark.edu [149.175.1.5]) by public.xfree86.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with SMTP id h2KLwDVs080526 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:58:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eta@lclark.edu) Received: from [149.175.30.191] ([149.175.30.191]) by sunfire.lclark.edu (SAVSMTP 3.0.1.45) with SMTP id M2003032013580824234 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 2003 13:58:08 -0800 Subject: Re: [forum] Suggestion for XFree86 From: Eric Anholt To: forum@XFree86.Org In-Reply-To: <20030320161052.B79762@xfree86.org> References: <200303201834.h2KIYPT02045@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20030320145941.A50818@xfree86.org> <1048192318.617.25.camel@leguin> <20030320161052.B79762@xfree86.org> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Message-Id: <1048197736.617.187.camel@leguin> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 Date: 20 Mar 2003 14:02:16 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-10.8 required=6.0 tests=IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, SIGNATURE_SHORT_DENSE,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01 version=2.41 X-Spam-Level: Sender: forum-admin@XFree86.Org Errors-To: forum-admin@XFree86.Org X-BeenThere: forum@XFree86.Org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: forum@XFree86.Org List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: A public forum for discussion about the future of XFree86 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 13:10, David Dawes wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 12:31:58PM -0800, Eric Anholt wrote: > >On Thu, 2003-03-20 at 11:59, David Dawes wrote: > >> On Thu, Mar 20, 2003 at 01:34:25PM -0500, Alan Cox wrote: > >> >> depends on XFree86's continued success. David Dawes has turned to that > >> >> constituency to assist him in resolving this situation. Both of these > >> > > >> >After kicking Keith out. Bad mistake but whats done is done. > >> > > >> >> The ONLY thing XFree86 needs to do to correct this problem is to establish a > >> >> mechanism where any interested person may join XFree86 and be given an equal > >> >> vote to elect a slate of candidates for a governing b